Why not 38 Super?

[Moonpie]

The old Super is a great caliber.
Everyone should have one.

 

[Charley]

Great cartridge, great fit for the1911. I've mentioned elsewhere that I built a 38 Super about 25 years ago, added a 9mm barrel, and later a 7.62x25 barrel. 3 in one.

 

[IXLR8]

Why not? Because they make 250 different 9mm rounds. They are always available.

 

[Gordo]

But fall short of the 38 Super's power.

 

[zackmars]

But fall short of the 38 Super's power.

It's only 200 fps. That only matters in competition with arbitrary rules.

Now if it were 800 fps faster, that'd be something.

 

[Gordo]

Supposedly it can be loaded to near 357 mag

 

[Bill Akins]

I thought about getting a .38 super, but after looking at the velocity of the 7.62x25 "Tokarev" cartridge (which is actually just a clone of the old 7.63 Mauser C96 "Broomhandle" cartridge) and since the 7.62x25 cartridge is about at the lower end of .357 mag velocity and available in military surplus bulk tins, I bought a military surplus Czech CZ52 and Chinese Norinco Tokarev pistols back in the 1990's. The round has a VERY sharp report and will hurt and ring your ears for hours afterwards if hearing protection is not used, and it has a decent recoil but not that bad for the velocity you're getting and not that much more than a standard 9mm. Let me give a personal example of the velocity & penetration capabilities of the 7.62x25 cartridge.

A few years ago, a friend of mine had another friend who wanted to have his Kevlar bullet resistant vest (without trauma plate) tested to see if it would work to save his life against pistol rounds. So my friend brought the vest over to my acreage and we attached it around a very thick walled "Hooters" wings five gallon orange plastic bucket. Then we filled the bucket with water. I do not remember the name brand of the vest.

Next we shot it with just about every common handgun caliber from about a distance of 20 feet. .22LF., .22mag, .25ACP, .32ACP, .32 long rimmed, .38 special, 9mmACP, .380ACP, .45ACP, .357mag, .44mag. Although both the .357mag and .44mag left dents in the bucket, nothing penetrated the vest nor the bucket. In fact you couldn't even tell where the projectiles had hit the vest. So the vest worked very well for protection against all those most commonly encountered rounds in the U.S.

I saved my Czech CZ52 and Chinese Norinco Tokarev pistols in 7.62x25 cartridge for last, because I had a definite feeling that the very high velocity (most powerful military pistol cartridge ever generally issued in Europe) with its 9mm size case head and case diameter but longer than 9mm case body and bottlenecked down to .30 caliber pushing a standard Warsaw pact military full metal copper jacket would penetrate the vest. It did. After just one shot we saw water pouring out of the vest from the water filled bucket. I fired another shot with the CZ52 and water poured from that hole also.

I quickly switched to my 7.62x25 Norinco Tokarev and fired two shots from it. Water poured from those two holes also.

Satisfied that we had tested the vest about as well as anyone could for its ability to stop bullet penetration, we removed it from the bucket and inspected the bucket and the vest.

That's when we discovered the .357mag and .44mag rounds had left heavy dents in the bucket but did not penetrate nor even leave a mark on the vest. Anyone wearing it though, would have had one heck of a bruise trauma or even a broken rib, but would have lived.

The CZ52 and Tokarev pistols in 7.62x25 both had the same penetrating qualities and used the same cartridges from the same military surplus tin pack. Their full copper jackets penetrated the front of the vest like a hot knife through butter, went through the thick plastic bucket, through the water, through the back of the thick plastic bucket, and almost through the back of the vest but hit an additional sheet layer of kevlar inside the rear of the vest and were all embedded in the back of the vest. We couldn't see them but could feel them.

Anyone wearing that bullet "proof" (resistant) vest might as well not have been wearing it at all if shot with the 7.62x25 Tokarev pistol cartridge. Can anyone say the same for the .32 super? My friend's friend was grateful to know just how well his vest would have protected him (in spite of the holes we put in it with the 7.62x25 projectiles), and he bought another vest with a trama plate in it.

German soldiers at Stalingrad complained that their 9mm parabellum rounds were often not penetrating enough to kill due to the thick heavy wool coats and wool winter clothing worn by the Soviets but the Soviet's PPSH sub gun and Tokarev pistol round (same cartridge for both guns) would go right through the German's thick heavy wool coats. And we confirmed that with our vest test.

So really, at least in my opinion, I see no need for a .38 Super and its expensive and not commonly stocked ammo, when it doesn't have the velocity and penetration qualities of the much less expensive, approximately lower end .357mag velocity, full copper jacketed, .30 caliber, bottlenecked 7.62x25 pistol cartridge. And you can get a CZ52 or Tokarev pistol and ammo for much less expense than a .38 super pistol and ammo and put better sights on them than the rudimentary military sights they come with.

I rarely post anymore at firearms forums due to some people who just want to start an argument and flamers who want to mess with me because I invented and patented bumpfire stocks, but I saw this .38 super thread in my email and wanted to relay my experience with velocity and penetration in a pistol cartridge. So that's my experience, opinion and vest test report.




.

 

[Gordo]

Had a CZ52, didn't the way it felt in my hand.
Then started researching it, and didn't like what I was seeing about it mechanically.

Maybe would have kept it if someone made nice grips for it, and then went after the breach lock roller thing.
Seems like there was some other issue also, but that was years ago.

 

[TheMailMan]

I've thought about that myself. I don't love my 125s I have for the magnum and since they're plated I bet they do great in the 9mm. Personally I load HAP .356" for my nines but never have tried .357. I should slug a few barrels to see if I can squeeze a little more accuracy out of a few nines with the mag bullets.

I have a BUNCH of 9mm firearms. In my Canik I was getting really bad leading with .356 bullets. Slugged the bore and it was .356, so I went to .357 and it solved the problem. None of my 9mm firearms have a problem with .357 bullets.

The load I do for 9mm plinking is extremely accurate. A double Distinguished Master has told me it's the most accurate 9mm ammo he's ever shot. The load is nothing special. Mixed range brass, whichever primers are on hand, 3.3 gr Clean Shot and a 125 gr RNFP bullet from a MP mold.

 

[TheMailMan]

Supposedly it can be loaded to near 357 mag

Not even close.

.357 mag holds 26.2 gr of water
.38 Super holds 17.6 gr of water

.357 Mag with a 125 grain bullet can hit over 1600 fps. A .38 Super +P with a 124 gr bullet... 1250 fps.

If you want .357 Mag in a bottom feeder either go with .357 Sig with 125 gr bullets or 10mm.

 

[TheMailMan]

I thought about getting a .38 super, but after looking at the velocity of the 7.62x25 "Tokarev" cartridge (which is actually just a clone of the old 7.63 Mauser Broomhandle cartridge) and since the 7.62x25 cartridge is about at the lower end of .357 mag velocity and available in military surplus bulk tins, I bought a military surplus Czech CZ52 and Chinese Norinco Tokarev pistols back in the 1990's. The round has a VERY sharp report and will hurt and ring your ears for hours afterwards if hearing protection is not used, and it has a decent recoil but not that bad for the velocity you're getting and not that much more than a standard 9mm. Let me give a personal example of the velocity & penetration capabilities of the 7.62x25 cartridge.

A few years ago, a friend of mine had another friend who wanted to have his Kevlar bullet resistant vest (without trauma plate) tested to see if it would work to save his life against pistol rounds. So my friend brought the vest over to my acreage and we attached it around a very thick walled "Hooters" wings five gallon orange plastic bucket. Then we filled the bucket with water. I do not remember the name brand of the vest.

Next we shot it with just about every common handgun caliber from about a distance of 20 feet. .22LF., .22mag, .25ACP, .32ACP, .32 long rimmed, .38 special, 9mmACP, .380ACP, .45ACP, .357mag, .44mag. Although both the .357mag and .44mag left dents in the bucket, nothing penetrated the vest nor the bucket. In fact you couldn't even tell where the projectiles had hit the vest. So the vest worked very well for protection against all those most commonly encountered rounds in the U.S.

I saved my Czech CZ52 and Chinese Norinco Tokarev pistols in 7.62x25 cartridge for last, because I had a definite feeling that the very high velocity (most powerful military pistol cartridge ever generally issued in Europe) with its 9mm size case head and case diameter but longer than 9mm case body and bottlenecked down to .30 caliber pushing a standard European military full metal copper jacket would penetrate the vest. It did. After just one shot we saw water pouring out of the vest from the water filled bucket. I fired another shot with the CZ52 and water poured from that hole also.

I quickly switched to my 7.62x25 Norinco Tokarev and fired two shots from it. Water poured from those two holes also.

Satisfied that we had tested the vest about as well as anyone could for its ability to stop bullet penetration, we removed it from the bucket and inspected the bucket and the vest.

That's when we discovered the .357mag and .44mag rounds had left heavy dents in the bucket but did not penetrate nor even leave a mark on the vest. Anyone wearing it though, would have had one heck of a bruise trauma or even a broken rib, but would have lived.

The CZ52 and Tokarev pistols in 7.62x25 both had the same penetrating qualities and used the same cartridges from the same military surplus tin pack. Their full copper jackets penetrated the front of the vest like a hot knife through butter, went through the thick plastic bucket, through the water, through the back of the thick plastic bucket, and almost though the back of the vest but hit an additional sheet layer of kevlar and were all embedded in the back of the vest. Anyone wearing that bullet "proof" (resistant) vest might as well not have been wearing it at all if shot with the 7.62x25 Tokarev pistol cartridge. Can anyone say the same for the .32 super? My friend's friend was grateful to know just how well his vest would have protected him (in spite of the holes we put in it with the 7.62x25 projectiles), and he bought another vest with a trama plate in it.

German soldiers at Stalingrad complained that their 9mm parabellum rounds were often not penetrating enough to kill due to the thick heavy wool coats and wool winter clothing worn by the Soviets but the Soviet's PPSH sub gun and Tokarev pistol round (same cartridge for both guns) would go right through the German's thick heavy wool coats. And we confirmed that with our vest test.

So really, at least in my opinion, I see no need for a .38 Super and its expensive and not commonly stocked ammo, when it doesn't come near to the velocity and penetration qualities of the much less expensive, approximately lower end .357mag velocity, full copper jacketed, .30 caliber, bottlenecked 7.62x25 pistol cartridge. And you can get a CZ52 or Tokarev pistol and ammo for much less expense than a .38 super pistol and ammo and put better sights on them than the rudimentary military sights they come with.

I rarely post anymore at firearms forums due to some people who just want to start an argument and flamers who want to mess with me because I invented and patented bumpfire stocks, but I saw this .38 super thread in my email and wanted to relay my experience with velocity and penetration in a pistol cartridge. So that's my experience, opinion and vest test report.




.

Anyone who causes the ATF to lose their collective minds and lose court cases...Is an OK person in my book.

 

[Bill Akins]

Had a CZ52, didn't the way it felt in my hand.
Then started researching it, and didn't like what I was seeing about it mechanically.

Maybe would have kept it if someone made nice grips for it, and then went after the breach lock roller thing.
Seems like there was some other issue also, but that was years ago.

That breach roller lock is the same strong type of lock used in the WW2 8mm German MG42 machine gun and the modern version of the MG42 used today with a slower rate of fire and in 7.62x51 Nato and called the MG3. I have had no issues with my CZ52 since I bought it decades ago. It is extremely strong and well made.

If you don't like the CZ52 for whatever reason/s, then get a Tokarev. (I have both). It's basically a John Browning designed internal hammer Colt .32acp (design ripped off and scaled up by the Soviets in 1925) only WITH an external hammer that's connected to an internal sear package (like on a French military pistol I used to have but forget the name of. "model 1935"?) that when the slide is removed is easily removable as a complete unit for cleaning.

There are also wrap around grips available for the Tokarev which you might like. Personally I like the factory "star" slender grips. They keep the already slim cross section profile Tokarev very slender for carry. Even "Mexican carry" (shoved into your pants waistband) not recommended for carry in public but good enough for walking around my acreage in case I run into any snakes or two legged snakes if I hear something outside at night and go with my flashlight to investigate. (It's usually a possum or racoon or the wind blowing something).

But the roller lock of the Czech CZ52 pistol and the MG42/MG3, is irrelevant to the 7.62x25 pistol cartridge I was comparing the velocity and penetration qualities of verses the .38 Super cartridge which is the subject of this thread.

 

[Bill Akins]

Anyone who causes the ATF to lose their collective minds and lose court cases...Is an OK person in my book.

Thank you.

 

[Gordo]

That breach roller lock is the same strong type of lock used in the WW2 8mm German MG42 machine gun and the modern version of the MG42

But the roller lock of the Czech CZ52 pistol and the MG42/MG3, is irrelevant to the 7.62x25 pistol cartridge I was comparing the velocity and penetration qualities of verses the .38 Super cartridge which is the subject of this thread.

And many HKs.
Didn't say the design was bad, I said that CZ had issues, mostly the rollers were too soft.
Someone was selling replacement rollers, but by the time I picked up mine (maybe 10+ years ago, they were gone.

Oh, and pardon me that I wondered off the 'official' thread topic.
Glad that TGT hired a new thread monitor (you), all the way from FLORIDA....

 

[Bill Akins]

And many HKs.
Didn't say the design was bad, I said that CZ had issues, mostly the rollers were too soft.
Someone was selling replacement rollers, but by the time I picked up mine (maybe 10+ years ago, they were gone.

Oh, and pardon me that I wondered off the 'official' thread topic.
Glad that TGT hired a new thread monitor (you), all the way from FLORIDA....

No, you alluded much more than just saying the "CZ had issues". And since you are such an insulting smartass in your above reply to me, here's right back at ya what you actually said.


What you actually said was:
"Gordo said:
Had a CZ52, didn't the way it felt in my hand.
Then started researching it, and didn't like what I was seeing about it mechanically.
Maybe would have kept it if someone made nice grips for it, and then went after the breach lock roller thing.
Seems like there was some other issue also, but that was years ago."


1. Nobody cares if you didn't like how the CZ52 felt in your hand. That's irrelevant to my post which was about showing the superior velocity and penetration of the 7.62x25 cartridge verses the .38 super, since the title of this thread is: "Why not a .38 super?".

2. Nobody cares that you started researching the CZ52 pistol. That isn't the subject of this thread nor was it the subject of my post which was about showing the superior velocity and penetration of the 7.62x25 cartridge verses the .38 super, since the title of this thread is: "Why not a .38 super?".

3. Nobody cares that you didn't like what you were seeing about it (the CZ52 pistol) mechanically. Because AGAIN.....my post was about showing the superior velocity and penetration of the 7.62x25 cartridge verses the .38 super, since the title of this thread is: "Why not a .38 super?".

4. Nobody cares if you might have kept your CZ52 pistol or not "if someone made nice grips for it". Again, irrelevant and off thread topic.

5. Nobody cares if you don't like "the breech roller thing" of the CZ52 pistol. The Czech military certainly liked it or they wouldn't have adopted it.

6. And after ALL that in your FIRST reply to me, the ONLY time you mentioned the word "issue/issues", was when you wrote: "Seems like there was some other issue also, but that was years ago". And yet in your SECOND reply to me you wrote: "Didn't say the design was bad, I said that CZ had issues, mostly the rollers were too soft". Of course you alluded the design was bad, you didn't like the way it fit your hand, you didn't like the grips, you didn't like "the breech roller thing". Naw, none of that was about the DESIGN was it?
And you lied and said: ""Didn't say the design was bad, I said that CZ had issues, mostly the rollers were too soft". Nope, you never mentioned the breech block rollers being too soft in your FIRST reply to me, but now in your SECOND reply to me you lie and say you did. All we have to do is look at your two replies to me to see that. So we can add liar to your overblown ego, insulting smartass personality.


7. The CZ52 pistol itself, is irrelevant to my post you unnecessarily and irrelevantly commented on, since my post was about comparing the velocity and penetration qualities of the 7.62x25 cartridge verses the .38 super cartridge and I just mentioned the CZ52 pistol and Tokarev pistol in my post because they were the two pistols I fired the 7.62x25 cartridges from. They were simply ancillary and not the primary subject of my post nor the subject of this thread which is...."Why not a .38 super?". But you just had to totally off subject irrelevantly reply to my post didn't you? And then even though my reply to you was intended as helpful with telling you if you don't like the CZ52 then get a Tokarev and how you can get wrap around grips for it since you didn't like the grips on the CZ52, instead, your over inflated ego and smartass personality made you say smartass remarks to me such as: "Oh, and pardon me that I wondered off the 'official' thread topic, followed by: "Glad that TGT hired a new thread monitor (you) all the way from FLORIDA....".

If your attention span and thread subject matter retention is so poor that you are unable to stay on a thread's primary topic and on the same primary topic of reply posts within that thread, then no, you should not be asking others to "pardon" you, you should either stay on topic and not post irrelevant subject matter or if you are incapable of showing the OP and other members that respect for the topic of the thread, then you shouldn't post at all.

And as for you writing in your second reply to me: ""Glad that TGT hired a NEW thread monitor (you) all the way from FLORIDA....".

For your information, I am not a NEW member. If you look below my avatar picture, you will see I joined this site Nov 10, 2010. You're not so subtly trying to say Floridians are not welcome at this site. Yes that's exactly what you're alluding. You're alluding that someone from Florida should not be criticizing you for going totally off topic in a thread and responding to them with irrelevant subject matter and you making smartass and discriminatory remarks also, and that only someone from TEXAS should be able to criticize and point out that you're doing that. That's exactly what you're alluding Captain Discrimination based on state residence. Well who made you the site admin? Show me where it states in the rules that Floridians are second class members and not really welcome here and not allowed to (even nicely and politely) criticize your off topic irrelevant posts simply because you're a Texan.

Because of off topic, irrelevant to the subject matter posters like you, who when called out (even nicely and politely) become argumentative, insulting, and nasty, because their fragile overblown ego can't take anyone even politely, nicely, mentioning their reply post was irrelevant to the subject matter of the poster they replied to,.....that I rarely post at firearm forums anymore. But when I DO post (rarely) and some jerk like you gives me a ration of crap even after I was nice in my reply to their irrelevant off topic reply to me, then it is time for me to no longer be nice. There's a lot of nasty, insulting, jerks like you around who's fragile egos can't take even the slightest even nicely put criticism even when it is warranted, (as it was in my first reply to your irrelevant reply to my first post). So stick all the above in your pipe and smoke it GORDO. I've said all I need to say to you and am not going to waste one more minute of my time on your irrelevant to the thread subject, off topic, insulting, nasty, discriminatory against members from other states than Texas , smartass self, except to say I guess it's clear that you don't do well in making friends and influencing people. You're good at making enemies and negatively influencing people about your personality though.

 

[deemus]

I've been tempted by a couple nice 1911's in 38 super. Never pulled the trigger because they always are from mid-high end ($$$$) builders. And I just do not want to add another caliber to the ammo shelf.

This. Always was interested Just talked myself out of it. (Says the guys who reloads for 224 Valkyrie)





And that one above was way too long to read.

 

[zackmars]

 

[Moonpie]

Why hasn't the OP posted pics of his new 38 Super?

OP is a slacker.

 

[benenglish]

I rarely post at firearm forums anymore.

That's understandable.

The culture here is unique. I suppose every gun forum can say the same but it often takes folks quite a while to grok this place.

The best way to understand this forum is to attend a few in-person meet-ups. Those gatherings, not the flow of electrons on computers, are the heart and soul of this place. I realize that your location makes that problematic but if you had the opportunity to meet people face to face you'd likely relax quite a bit more when you read something you perceive as insulting.

Here's hoping you find friends around here without letting arcane ballistics and design questions ruin that potential.

BTW, if you're that Bill Akins, please understand that even the folks around here who don't know you appreciate your work, whether they realize it or not.

 

[Gordo]

Never heard of him...