Why not 38 Super?

[TxStetson]

BTW, if you're that Bill Akins, please understand that even the folks around here who don't know you appreciate your work, whether they realize it or not.

What’re the odds?

 

[hornetguy]

But fall short of the 38 Super's power.

I was looking at this, and it seems that the .357 Sig has more energy, etc.... given the ready availability of that cartridge, I can't justify going for a Super....
I don't know if the Sig could be adapted to a 1911, though.... that might be the only advantage the Super has over the Sig.....

 

[benenglish]

What’re the odds?

Based on his location and some of what he wrote, high. Based on the fact that William Akins isn't generally famous enough to be worth impersonating on the internet, even higher.

 

[TxStetson]

Based on his location and some of what he wrote, high. Based on the fact that William Akins isn't generally famous enough to be worth impersonating on the internet, even higher.

Good point I just assumed it was someone creating an obscure username.

 

[Moonpie]

Who is Willians Akins and why should I care?

 

[TxStetson]

Who is Willians Akins and why should I care?

You’re the last person I would expect that question from.

Inventor of 'bump stock' spent years fighting for device, and lost

The Florida inventor who designed the first "bump stock," nearly two decades before the Las Vegas gunman used one to massacre 58 people on Sunday, never made a dime off of his creation.

www.reuters.com

 

[Gordo]

I was looking at this, and it seems that the .357 Sig has more energy, etc.... given the ready availability of that cartridge, I can't justify going for a Super....
I don't know if the Sig could be adapted to a 1911, though.... that might be the only advantage the Super has over the Sig.....

One of the forerunners of the .357 Sig was the .357 Brian & Davis (back around 1980-ish), and I had seen that in 1911s.
Was a necked down .45 acp case.
These days, you can't find anything on that cartridge...

 

[benenglish]

Who is Willians Akins and why should I care?

Inventor of the Akins Accelerator and fighter against BATFE excesses. Based on what he's written here (assuming it is him, of course) he also seems to have become a crusty old cuss but I reckon he's earned it.

 

[Gordo]

Inventor of 'bump stock' spent years fighting for device, and lost

The Florida inventor who designed the first "bump stock," nearly two decades before the Las Vegas gunman used one to massacre 58 people on Sunday, never made a dime off of his creation.

www.reuters.com

LoL, I don't pay attention to tinker-toy ideas.
Thought it was a stupid idea in the first place, kind of like the little clamp on trigger cranks.
I don't know who invented those either.

Why do people want to tease a wild dog (ATF) with a stick?

 

[TxStetson]

LoL, I don't pay attention to tinker-toy ideas.
Thought it was a stupid idea in the first place, kind of like the little clamp on trigger cranks.
I don't know who invented those either.

Why do people want to tease a wild dog (ATF) with a stick?

Whether you think it was a good idea or not really isn’t the issue. The issue was government over reach. Again. I never owned a bumpstock or a binary trigger, but I didn’t feel that nobody should own them because I didn’t have them.

 

[benenglish]

One of the forerunners of the .357 Sig was the .357 Brian & Davis (back around 1980-ish), and I had seen that in 1911s.
Was a necked down .45 acp case.

I don't think so. The Bain & Davis was a rimmed cartridge, a .44 mag necked to .357.

The .45 ACP necked down was an idea that never gained much traction.

In the early 1960s, Dick Casull came out with the .38 Casull but it didn't sell. He used stronger cases than the ACP, though, so he could load to higher pressures. I don't remember the names of the higher strength .45 ACP clones that were available back then. .45 Detonics? I can't remember. Today, I suppose you'd most likely start with .45 Win Mag or .45 Super.

At about the same time, Bo Clerke came out with the .38/.45 Clerke. It wasn't designed for power so it used regular .45 brass. It was supposed to be a very reliable-feeding target cartridge. It was, indeed, exactly that. However, nobody recognized much need for it. Heck, people were more likely to convert 1911s to .38 Special (with all the problems that entailed) than adopt the .38/.45 Clerke.

Both turned out to be dead ends.

Ken Howell's Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges (at least, my copy) doesn't mention either of them. He includes an entry for the .38-.45 but doesn't give any recognition to Casull or Clerke and the cartridge drawing looks more than a little different than either of them. I consider that even more evidence that this whole area of research was pretty frustrating for everyone involved.

Come to think of it, the .357 B&D was sort of a dead end, too. Necked-down cartridges can have setback problems in revolvers so it was only really reliable in single shots, despite the fact that there were some S&W M27s that used it. It was used more in single shots until the .357 Maximum came along. That cartridge produced almost as much power without the need to form cases. As a bonus, the Maximum had the reliability of a straight-wall cartridge when used in revolvers. So the B&D more or less sputtered to a halt. After all, if you're going to go to all the trouble of making a necked .357 that's best used in single shots, you might as well go all the way to the .357 Herrett, right?

 

[benenglish]

Why do people want to tease a wild dog (ATF) with a stick?

The issue was government over reach.

I just feel a strong internal revulsion to people who make rules but object to anyone being smarter than they are.

We've all seen that dynamic at work. Elgin Gates routinely interfered with the rules for silhouette shooting because he knew what he thought pistol silhouette shooting should be and anyone with different ideas could go to hell. Many shooting sports have a "You're not allowed to be smarter than the folks who write the rules" rule. The NRA has or had a "spirit of the rules" rule that they used to outlaw chin stocks on silhouette rifles. Cowboy shooting and various practical disciplines have "failure to engage" or "failure to do right" rules. The ISU was famous all over the world for writing rules to make any technology illegal if they didn't think of it first and many Olympians found themselves on the short end of the stick once the ISU got their dander up.

In every case, these are folks who simply can't stand the notion that when they set the rules, someone playing the game might be smarter than them and must, therefore, be slapped down.

I can walk away from this sort of small-mindedness when the situation is merely voluntary participation in a recreational activity.

Where governments, laws, and regulations are concerned, none of us can simply walk away. I do not and cannot forgive control-freak authoritarianism when it comes from official sources authorized to use force to impose their will. I can't forgive it when people with guns may show up at your door to make you play their game the way they conceived it. That shit leads to revolutions.

So, yeah, poking at the ATF (or any other TLA), finding loopholes, figuring out things they were too dumb to foresee, is, IMO, a noble undertaking. Fighting those fights helps keep government overreach in check.

 

[Moonpie]

I never felt the desire to participate in the bump stock rapid fire thing.
I can’t hit a barn firing single fire. Spewing rounds I’d shoot the truck and the firing line roof and the soda machine over by the office.
That is just me.

OTOH, the fed.gov has a particular stick up its ass about “machine guns”.
It’s almost like they’re terrified of the stupid things.
They will NEVER allow them or anything like them to be in general usage.
The TLA’s will fight that to your death.
Anything they perceive to go near that will bring their wrath.
Sure take it to court. Who pays the judge? You have your answer.

 

[hornetguy]

Well said @benenglish

 

[deemus]

Whether you think it was a good idea or not really isn’t the issue. The issue was government over reach. Again. I never owned a bumpstock or a binary trigger, but I didn’t feel that nobody should own them because I didn’t have them.

I was always interested in the stock thingy. Never got around to buying one, and wish I had the chance to see what all the hub-bub was about before they disappeared.

Looks like it could have been fun.

 

[benenglish]

Looks like it could have been fun.

They were. I loved mine when I was in the right mood for it.

 

[Gordo]

Wish I had my 50 years of gun mags, but they all ended up in the trash after a couple of years, like all my bike mags, so I could look it up.
Maybe it was a complete fizzle by Brian & Davis.
Maybe I'm thinking of the .38/45 Clerke, but I don't think so.

The trouble with teasing a wild dog with a stick too many times, is that eventually the dog hates everyone.

 

[IXLR8]

How come no one ever brings up the .22TCM? 2000 fps out of a 5” barrel in a 1911 pistol?

I am pretty sure that this ammo has to have a lead tip to be legal, otherwise it would certainly be a classified as armor piercing round like certain 5.7x28 rounds are…

 

[zackmars]

How come no one ever brings up the .22TCM? 2000 fps out of a 5” barrel in a 1911 pistol?

I am pretty sure that this ammo has to have a lead tip to be legal, otherwise it would certainly be a classified as armor piercing round like certain 5.7x28 rounds are…

Everything is armor piercing to something, for example, .30 carbine from a handgun will zip through a IIIa vest like it isn't even there, same with 7.62 tok. Plain ol 5.56 55gr will penetrate lv III plates up close, etc.

No one talks about .22 tcm because there's two different versions (.22 TCM and .22 TCM9R) and the only guns and ammo comes from armscor.

 

[Moonpie]

We can always bring up the 22CCM