Ukraine War and Politics

[cycleguy2300]

Here are pictures and bullet points...

The only foreign entity that created, caused or perpetuates this war is russia, who could turn and go home now if they wanted the war to stop.

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[Dakar34]

The premises and conclusions are just wrong.

Passed in Jan 2014 in response to the Euromadian protests.

Anti-protest laws in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The "Heavenly Hundred"... killed on Feb 21 again at the protests.

Maidan casualties - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They were shot by russian or russian trained snipers of the Berkut (some sources say it was actual russian military snipers, who were brought in/sent to clear the square and, in accordance with the soviet legacy shot at BOTH police and protesters...

In the wake of Ukriane throwing off the soviet past and turning towards freedom and the west, in March 2014 russia invaded and took control over a large portion of Ukriane including Crimea. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation

I don't doubt there were spooks doing spook things in Ukraine in 2014 but the revolution there was not tipped one way or the other by the American hand... The Ukrainians were tired of the soviet legacy and threw it off on their own after months of protests and many, many being killed. Ukriane (and Mexico) are free to make what friends they want that is the nature of sovereignty.

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The facts remain: 1) The gov't in Ukraine was democratically elected; 2) Some factions were unhappy in Ukraine, and the US AID (historically often acts in concert with the CIA) poured millions into supporting their effort to overthrow said gov't; and 3) emails etc later came out showing that White House personnel (eg Victoria Nuland) were discussing who they wanted to (and did) install in the new gov't of Ukraine. And yes, that's when the war started in NE Ukraine.
People like McGeorge Bundy (seen as the author of US "containment" policy) and Henry Kissinger strongly warned President Clinton that expanding NATO eastward would ultimately result in trouble (some say it violated agreements made previously). Russia was devastated by Napoleon's invasion, and the USSR lost something like 25M people in WW2 (the US lost a few hundred thousand, btw). Thus Russian foreign policy after WW2 was to maintain friendly or neutral states to the west, in the historical corridors used by invaders.
I made the analogy of our response to China placing troops in Mexico or Canada, and in fact the US has no history of respecting sovereignty in the western hemisphere. We have, at one time or another, sent troops into both of those and numerous others to accomplish American goals and desires. Nor is that true only in the western hemisphere. (As an aside, I would certainly not want the US to sit idly by if such things were occurring along our borders.)
Geopolitics isn't always just doing what you want or what you can, sometimes it's beneficial to think about the logical outcomes of different actions.
Ultimately I expect Ukraine will settle with Russia, agreeing to be neutral, and Russia will keep Sevastopol (built by Catherine the Great in the 1700's), the Crimea, and probably more. Ukraine worked out a cease fire which would have agreed to at least some of that, but we made sure it was scuttled.

 

[cav2108541]

This thread one of two new ones dedicated to the Ukraine war. It's a place to talk (Respectfully, please!) about the whys and wherefores, the forces behind the decisions, and the rightness or wrongness of the actions and words of those involved, including other participants on this forum.

If it devolves to the level of mudslinging that characterized the previous thread, well, as I've said elsewhere, I expect to be forced to hand out bans. They may be short or permanent or anywhere in between but the level of useless noise and heartbreaking vitriol found in the old thread will no longer be tolerated. The "if you just want to insult people" rule is in full effect here, much more so than normal.

I hate to have to take this action but, frankly, I'm torn. The subject is important. Y'all have useful insights. BUT y'all are going to have find a way to just get along.

Understood?

BTW - The other thread is here.

I care more about the dressing for my salad tomorrow than Ukraine. I do care about my tax dollars continuing to be laundered through that euro-shithole and back into politician's pockets though.

 

[studenygreg]

For the record I have plenty of beliefs I've never left the couch for.

I respect bigred's dedication to voicing opposition to governmental plundering. I think the nation's history of spending our taxes overseas on clearly foolish things (Iran, Hamas...) with no hope of ever improving freedom's footing taints the few and rare times we should support nations and groups fighting for freedom.

I respect Havok1's challenge to taking things as they plainy are (or so I believe). It forces me to dig and try to filter out articles and things I see that I "like" but might not be accurate.

While I find the repetitive themes tiresome and very annoying, I try to trust the intent.

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One positive aspect for me is that there is a clear goal, unlike a lot of other conflicts we get into.

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[studenygreg]

I care more about the dressing for my salad tomorrow than Ukraine. I do care about my tax dollars continuing to be laundered through that euro-shithole and back into politician's pockets though.

When and how did Ukraine become this Hotspot for corruption and money laundering? I'm not sure I understand why them.

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[cycleguy2300]

The facts remain: 1) The gov't in Ukraine was democratically elected; 2) Some factions were unhappy in Ukraine, and the US AID (historically often acts in concert with the CIA) poured millions into supporting their effort to overthrow said gov't; and 3) emails etc later came out showing that White House personnel (eg Victoria Nuland) were discussing who they wanted to (and did) install in the new gov't of Ukraine. And yes, that's when the war started in NE Ukraine.
People like McGeorge Bundy (seen as the author of US "containment" policy) and Henry Kissinger strongly warned President Clinton that expanding NATO eastward would ultimately result in trouble (some say it violated agreements made previously). Russia was devastated by Napoleon's invasion, and the USSR lost something like 25M people in WW2 (the US lost a few hundred thousand, btw). Thus Russian foreign policy after WW2 was to maintain friendly or neutral states to the west, in the historical corridors used by invaders.
I made the analogy of our response to China placing troops in Mexico or Canada, and in fact the US has no history of respecting sovereignty in the western hemisphere. We have, at one time or another, sent troops into both of those and numerous others to accomplish American goals and desires. Nor is that true only in the western hemisphere. (As an aside, I would certainly not want the US to sit idly by if such things were occurring along our borders.)
Geopolitics isn't always just doing what you want or what you can, sometimes it's beneficial to think about the logical outcomes of different actions.
Ultimately I expect Ukraine will settle with Russia, agreeing to be neutral, and Russia will keep Sevastopol (built by Catherine the Great in the 1700's), the Crimea, and probably more. Ukraine worked out a cease fire which would have agreed to at least some of that, but we made sure it was scuttled.

Yikes dude.

Let me get this straight:

You're willing to violate another nation's sovereignty because you don't like who they are friendly with? Seriously, WTF... people like you are the globalist problem.



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[cycleguy2300]

When and how did Ukraine become this Hotspot for corruption and money laundering? I'm not sure I understand why them.

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Show me a nation that isn't corrupt...

Heck, show me a city...

But the reality is corruption (that was supported by russia) was one of the things the euromaidsn protests were against and its one of the things that has been cleaned up quite a bit since 2014.




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[Johnny Diamond]

I'm just guessing here, but... politicians everywhere have always been corrupt, and any place socialism/communism is or has been is doubly so the Ukraine may well have decided to be independent of Moscow, however the rot existed nonetheless and I suspect that the Kremlin has maintained operatives any where they used to rule and so a free nation/state with the remnants of communist rot and money hungry rulers of their own was an easy place to do business.

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[Paul Saver]

"Excuse me sir.. which way to Ukraine?

 

[Dakar34]

Yikes dude.

Let me get this straight:

You're willing to violate another nation's sovereignty because you don't like who they are friendly with? Seriously, WTF... people like you are the globalist problem.



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GFR. We violate'm whenever we want. Big & little (as long as we can kick the shit out of'em). Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Grenada, Haiti, Serbia, and so on, and so on ...

 

[Dakar34]

Show me a nation that isn't corrupt...

Heck, show me a city...

But the reality is corruption (that was supported by russia) was one of the things the euromaidsn protests were against and its one of the things that has been cleaned up quite a bit since 2014.




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Anyone ever wonder about the "coincidence" of all this happening in the same country that Biden's kid had a six-figure no-show "job"?

 

[Dakar34]

Old saying: Follow the money. Where's most of the $100B (? not sure exact amount) the US has borrowed to send military equipment etc to Ukraine actually gone? Eisenhower called it the "military-industrial complex"

 

[cycleguy2300]

GFR. We violate'm whenever we want. Big & little (as long as we can kick the shit out of'em). Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Grenada, Haiti, Serbia, and so on, and so on ...

And that's a problem, a big problem unless your a big govt globalist.

Now, I find it interesting and evidence of their disingenuousness that neither Havok1 nor Bigred have spoken against you, as your position is not only antithetical to our constitution but to the values we share in seeking a smaller, less obtrusive government.



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[cycleguy2300]

Anyone ever wonder about the "coincidence" of all this happening in the same country that Biden's kid had a six-figure no-show "job"?

Kinda like the coincidence of you joining tgt then suddenly the vast majority of your posts are pro-russia...

Identifying and Analyzing Health-Related Themes in Disinformation Shared by Conservative and Liberal Russian Trolls on Twitter

To combat health disinformation shared online, there is a need to identify and characterize the prevalence of topics shared by trolls managed by individuals to promote discord. The current literature is limited to a few health topics and dominated by ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Russia's Covert Troll Farms Are Failing: Meta Report

Russia’s troll army has stalled amid Vladimir Putin’s war on Ukraine, according to a new report from Facebook’s parent company.

www.rollingstone.com

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[cycleguy2300]

russia has no more claim to Crimea than we do to Cuba. Just because you leased a major port, doesn't give you the right to take the region for yourself.

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[wiredgeorge]

The facts remain: 1) The gov't in Ukraine was democratically elected; 2) Some factions were unhappy in Ukraine, and the US AID (historically often acts in concert with the CIA) poured millions into supporting their effort to overthrow said gov't; and 3) emails etc later came out showing that White House personnel (eg Victoria Nuland) were discussing who they wanted to (and did) install in the new gov't of Ukraine. And yes, that's when the war started in NE Ukraine.
People like McGeorge Bundy (seen as the author of US "containment" policy) and Henry Kissinger strongly warned President Clinton that expanding NATO eastward would ultimately result in trouble (some say it violated agreements made previously). Russia was devastated by Napoleon's invasion, and the USSR lost something like 25M people in WW2 (the US lost a few hundred thousand, btw). Thus Russian foreign policy after WW2 was to maintain friendly or neutral states to the west, in the historical corridors used by invaders.
I made the analogy of our response to China placing troops in Mexico or Canada, and in fact the US has no history of respecting sovereignty in the western hemisphere. We have, at one time or another, sent troops into both of those and numerous others to accomplish American goals and desires. Nor is that true only in the western hemisphere. (As an aside, I would certainly not want the US to sit idly by if such things were occurring along our borders.)
Geopolitics isn't always just doing what you want or what you can, sometimes it's beneficial to think about the logical outcomes of different actions.
Ultimately I expect Ukraine will settle with Russia, agreeing to be neutral, and Russia will keep Sevastopol (built by Catherine the Great in the 1700's), the Crimea, and probably more. Ukraine worked out a cease fire which would have agreed to at least some of that, but we made sure it was scuttled.

The US lost more than a few hundred thousand fighting men in WWII !!!​

Source: https://www.nationalww2museum.org/s...tarters/research-starters-us-military-numbers​

US MILITARY PERSONNEL (1939-1945)
​

Year	Army	Navy	Marines	Coast Guard	Total
1939	189,839	125,202	19,432		334,473
1940	269,023	160,997	28,345		458,365
1941	1,462,315	284,427	54,359		1,801,101
1942	3,075,608	640,570	142,613	56,716*	3,915,507
1943	6,994,472	1,741,750	308,523	151,167	9,195,912
1944	7,994,750	2,981,365	475,604	171,749	11,623,468
1945	8,267,958	3,380,817	474,680	85,783	12,209,238

*Coast Guard listed only as wartime strength

 

[wiredgeorge]

 

[Dakar34]

And that's a problem, a big problem unless your a big govt globalist.

Now, I find it interesting and evidence of their disingenuousness that neither Havok1 nor Bigred have spoken against you, as your position is not only antithetical to our constitution but to the values we share in seeking a smaller, less obtrusive government.



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I don't support it, but there it is. I agree with your latter point, though it's not clear that it directly violates the Constitution. Washington warned against "foreign entanglements" and against having a professional military. I agree with both. My fundamental point is that we worked in general to create a situation where war was more likely, and in Ukraine to make it almost inevitable. It's good for business, and for expanding US gov't power. Not to mention that constant war and crises are good for expanding gov't power at home (which some favor & I oppose). "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." - HL Mencken

 

[Dakar34]

The US lost more than a few hundred thousand fighting men in WWII !!!​

Source: https://www.nationalww2museum.org/s...tarters/research-starters-us-military-numbers​

US MILITARY PERSONNEL (1939-1945)​

​

Year	Army	Navy	Marines	Coast Guard	Total
1939	189,839	125,202	19,432		334,473
1940	269,023	160,997	28,345		458,365
1941	1,462,315	284,427	54,359		1,801,101
1942	3,075,608	640,570	142,613	56,716*	3,915,507
1943	6,994,472	1,741,750	308,523	151,167	9,195,912
1944	7,994,750	2,981,365	475,604	171,749	11,623,468
1945	8,267,958	3,380,817	474,680	85,783	12,209,238

*Coast Guard listed only as wartime strength

That's how many served, not deaths. About 400K American service personnel died during the war, and about 300K from combat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

 

[Dakar34]

Kinda like the coincidence of you joining tgt then suddenly the vast majority of your posts are pro-russia...

Identifying and Analyzing Health-Related Themes in Disinformation Shared by Conservative and Liberal Russian Trolls on Twitter

To combat health disinformation shared online, there is a need to identify and characterize the prevalence of topics shared by trolls managed by individuals to promote discord. The current literature is limited to a few health topics and dominated by ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Russia's Covert Troll Farms Are Failing: Meta Report

Russia’s troll army has stalled amid Vladimir Putin’s war on Ukraine, according to a new report from Facebook’s parent company.

www.rollingstone.com

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I joined because my brother told me about it. My comments on this thread reflect an attitude of keeping my eyes open and thinking about what it's like to walk a mile in the other guy's shoes. The "you're just pro-[something]" argument is just one version of an ad hominem attack. You would do well to remember that the same CIA that was working in Ukraine during the Obama administration also cooked up the "Russian collusion" campaign ...