Ukraine War and Politics

[Dakar34]

russia has no more claim to Crimea than we do to Cuba. Just because you leased a major port, doesn't give you the right to take the region for yourself.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

Is Ron Paul's group also pro-Russia, in your opinion? Started well before 2014 ...

 

[studenygreg]

Show me a nation that isn't corrupt...

Heck, show me a city...

But the reality is corruption (that was supported by russia) was one of the things the euromaidsn protests were against and its one of the things that has been cleaned up quite a bit since 2014.




Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

Great points. I wasn't trying to single out Ukraine but it always seems to be a major point when discussing the country. I was just trying to understand why that is.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[studenygreg]

russia has no more claim to Crimea than we do to Cuba. Just because you leased a major port, doesn't give you the right to take the region for yourself.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

I think just about anybody can lay claim to anything based on the past. Heck, I'm wondering when China will take over the entire east based on Ghengis Khans' rein. Also I find it odd liberals want to return la d to native Americans but not Ukraine to Russia. Sounds hypocritical to me

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[Dakar34]

Show me a nation that isn't corrupt...

Heck, show me a city...

But the reality is corruption (that was supported by russia) was one of the things the euromaidsn protests were against and its one of the things that has been cleaned up quite a bit since 2014.




Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

I see no convincing evidence there's been a big change in corruption since the old government was overthrown.

 

[cycleguy2300]

I see no convincing evidence there's been a big change in corruption since the old government was overthrown.

Have you talked to anyone who lives there?
What evidence do you have either way?

EVERYONE who I talked to while there has said the situation involving corruption has vastly improved since 2014.

Out of all the volunteers I know, only one had a fine demanded on site and he was drunk, riding a electric scooter and punched the mirror off a police car... hard to call that a bribe since they were likely makingnsure they could pay forbthe damage. Despite being out after curfew frequently, taking pics of damaged buildings and being stopped several times, never did I have a hint of police being dirty, which was known to be a significant pre-2014 problem.

And strictly speaking the old government was not "overthrown" the president was voted out by parliament in accordance with the law. (Even I call it a coup sometimes, but it wasnt)

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

 

[Dakar34]

Have you talked to anyone who lives there?
What evidence do you have either way?

EVERYONE who I talked to while there has said the situation involving corruption has vastly improved since 2014.

Out of all the volunteers I know, only one had a fine demanded on site and he was drunk, riding a electric scooter and punched the mirror off a police car... hard to call that a bribe since they were likely makingnsure they could pay forbthe damage. Despite being out after curfew frequently, taking pics of damaged buildings and being stopped several times, never did I have a hint of police being dirty, which was known to be a significant pre-2014 problem.

And strictly speaking the old government was not "overthrown" the president was voted out by parliament in accordance with the law. (Even I call it a coup sometimes, but it wasnt)

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

Well you forced me to look it up, and its corruption rating has improved (though it still ranks in the lower half, worldwide).

 

[Johnny Diamond]

Only because they don't count the U.S. .

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[cycleguy2300]

Well you forced me to look it up, and its corruption rating has improved (though it still ranks in the lower half, worldwide).

Don't think I'm saying they are doing wonderful, just that they are improving...

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

 

[Dakar34]

Don't think I'm saying they are doing wonderful, just that they are improving...

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

BTW, I'm not arguing that Russia was "right" in invading, simply that we took actions that were likely to provoke military action, and that we did it for our own purposes. And not just overseas purposes either, as war, crises, etc are useful to those who desire to increase the centralization of power in the US.

 

[cycleguy2300]

BTW, I'm not arguing that Russia was "right" in invading, simply that we took actions that were likely to provoke military action, and that we did it for our own purposes. And not just overseas purposes either, as war, crises, etc are useful to those who desire to increase the centralization of power in the US.

I appreciate that.

I disagree that the USA/NATO provoked russia and even had Ukraine been onnthe fast track (ala Finland/Sweden) to join NATO I don't think it justified in anyway, the invasion.

We, the USA, have disregarded what was right for maintaining friendships too many times in the past (look at the orgins of the Vietnam war or Rhodesia) and while I tend isolationist, just as what happens in my neighbor's house isnt my business, there are times I will invest my time, energy and money to help if one neighbor kicks in the door to another neighbor.

I think Ukraine should be able to be friendly or a member of the EU or NATO or some russia-centric alliance if they choose, and neither russia nor the USA should use their choice to align themselves one way or the other as justification for usurping their sovereignty, killing their citizens and destroying their culture and heritage.

Had we listened to and helped Ho chi minh, when we asked us for help duringbtheir attempt to win independence from France, the veitnam war may never have been fought and they could have been a strong democratic nation (perhaps unlikely but possible). I throughly believe we should avoid foreign entanglements and keep our nose away from where it doesn't belong, but in rare cases, such as supporting Ukraine defend itself against a historic agressor and regional bully (Kazakhstan, Georgia etc), I fully believe we can and should help those fighting for freedom. It is a once in a lifetime chance to help a relatively young nation along the path of freedom and justice.

I do agree the USA is too often interested in "our own purposes" rather than a true interest in supporting freedom. Even now I dont think the democrats actually wanted to supoort Ukraine, but I think they painted themselves into an "anti-russia" position when in fact russia's Dictatorship aligns much more closely to their political stance. I think this is one of the major causes of the slowdown in supplying weapons, they are fine with prolonging the war because their goal isnt freedom, but chaos and having russia too busy with Ukraine to do much else.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

 

[Dakar34]

I appreciate that.

I disagree that the USA/NATO provoked russia and even had Ukraine been onnthe fast track (ala Finland/Sweden) to join NATO I don't think it justified in anyway, the invasion.

We, the USA, have disregarded what was right for maintaining friendships too many times in the past (look at the orgins of the Vietnam war or Rhodesia) and while I tend isolationist, just as what happens in my neighbor's house isnt my business, there are times I will invest my time, energy and money to help if one neighbor kicks in the door to another neighbor.

I think Ukraine should be able to be friendly or a member of the EU or NATO or some russia-centric alliance if they choose, and neither russia nor the USA should use their choice to align themselves one way or the other as justification for usurping their sovereignty, killing their citizens and destroying their culture and heritage.

Had we listened to and helped Ho chi minh, when we asked us for help duringbtheir attempt to win independence from France, the veitnam war may never have been fought and they could have been a strong democratic nation (perhaps unlikely but possible). I throughly believe we should avoid foreign entanglements and keep our nose away from where it doesn't belong, but in rare cases, such as supporting Ukraine defend itself against a historic agressor and regional bully (Kazakhstan, Georgia etc), I fully believe we can and should help those fighting for freedom. It is a once in a lifetime chance to help a relatively young nation along the path of freedom and justice.

I do agree the USA is too often interested in "our own purposes" rather than a true interest in supporting freedom. Even now I dont think the democrats actually wanted to supoort Ukraine, but I think they painted themselves into an "anti-russia" position when in fact russia's Dictatorship aligns much more closely to their political stance. I think this is one of the major causes of the slowdown in supplying weapons, they are fine with prolonging the war because their goal isnt freedom, but chaos and having russia too busy with Ukraine to do much else.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

Regarding Mexico it used to be said that it was "too close to the USA and too far from God." Ie that not even God could protect them from us. Ukraine is in a similar position with Russia.

 

[popper]

attempt to win independence from France sic ... S. Nam. But who were the French losing to? I.e. who chased the French out and why did we enter? Most large corporations had already bailed from Indonesia.

 

[msharley]

attempt to win independence from France sic ... S. Nam. But who were the French losing to? I.e. who chased the French out and why did we enter? Most large corporations had already bailed from Indonesia.

Hmmm?

Oh...

Michelin Rubber!

Michelin Rubber Plantations were off limits for our GI's....

 

[cycleguy2300]

Regarding Mexico it used to be said that it was "too close to the USA and too far from God." Ie that not even God could protect them from us. Ukraine is in a similar position with Russia.

I have a serious problem with the idea that Mexico can't or couldn't be friendly with what ever other nations they choose. If we dont want the buy or sell to them because of it cool. A-OK, but invading or bombing here or there to dissuade them is just wrong.

I can't egg my neighbor's house because they have a dirtbag friend with whom they hang out...

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

 

[cycleguy2300]

attempt to win independence from France sic ... S. Nam. But who were the French losing to? I.e. who chased the French out and why did we enter? Most large corporations had already bailed from Indonesia.

HCM turned to the soviets when the USA turned a blind eye and a deaf ear (*thanks* Kissinger...) to him because the French were our "ally". Instead of telling the French, "hey, this guy is right yall should probably back out" we instead supported the French and took over the war when they did step away as we got drawn in.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

 

[Johnny Diamond]

Kissinger was a real bastard. Must have been related to Klaus Schwab.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[Dakar34]

I have a serious problem with the idea that Mexico can't or couldn't be friendly with what ever other nations they choose. If we dont want the buy or sell to them because of it cool. A-OK, but invading or bombing here or there to dissuade them is just wrong.

I can't egg my neighbor's house because they have a dirtbag friend with whom they hang out...

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

You may not want to or be able to, but the US has always been willing to intervene militarily in the Americas and elsewhere. I'd guess at least a couple of dozen times during my life.

 

[Dakar34]

Kissinger was a real bastard. Must have been related to Klaus Schwab.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

I always felt that way too, and yet here we are, with people at high levels of gov't who think less of the wants and needs of other countries than Kissinger, who at least recognized that other countries could have legitimate positions that are different from what we want.

 

[cycleguy2300]

You may not want to or be able to, but the US has always been willing to intervene militarily in the Americas and elsewhere. I'd guess at least a couple of dozen times during my life.

I think that is just as wrong as barging into your neighbor's house uninvited.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

 

[Johnny Diamond]

1st COSCOM participated in many off the books (as it were) assignments some while I was a member at Fort Bragg.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk