Ukraine invasion

[Younggun]

Is the U.S. the moral authority of the world now? As far as I know, we haven't given them a free pass. If they threatened our allies, then certainly, military action is warranted. Otherwise, we condemn and sanction as we have. Let Europe, worry about Europe. To me, Ukraine is a distraction. The Biden administration uses it as a source of all our woes.

Also, think of it this way. After the Afghanistan withdrawal debacle, do you really trust these same military leaders to lead us to victory elsewhere?

All else aside, sanctions have never accomplished anything really.

 

[easy rider]

All else aside, sanctions have never accomplished anything really.

It's more a message than a real hardship.

 

[oldag]

Is the U.S. the moral authority of the world now? As far as I know, we haven't given them a free pass. If they threatened our allies, then certainly, military action is warranted. Otherwise, we condemn and sanction as we have. Let Europe, worry about Europe. To me, Ukraine is a distraction. The Biden administration uses it as a source of all our woes.

Also, think of it this way. After the Afghanistan withdrawal debacle, do you really trust these same military leaders to lead us to victory elsewhere?

Umm, last time I checked the US has taken no military action against Russia in Ukraine. Please fill me in on this if you know otherwise.

Just because Biden is using Ukraine as a distraction is no reason for the US not to help Ukraine.

As to you last point, again, please enlighten me as to how the US military is fighting in Ukraine.

 

[benenglish]

I'm more worried about China

I think if somebody started a new thread on that, it would wind up being as long as this one.

That is not encouragement.

 

[easy rider]

Umm, last time I checked the US has taken no military action against Russia in Ukraine. Please fill me in on this if you know otherwise.

Just because Biden is using Ukraine as a distraction is no reason for the US not to help Ukraine.

As to you last point, again, please enlighten me as to how the US military is fighting in Ukraine.

I never said the U.S. was involved militarily, as in forces on the ground. Giving military aid as in arms can also be considered military involvement. I'm sure Russia sees it that way.

My opinions are based on the sentiments of some here that seem to think we should be more militarily involved.

 

[easy rider]

I think if somebody started a new thread on that, it would wind up being as long as this one.

That is not encouragement.

It was in context with my opinion of Russia's so called world domination. I'm not sure where to begin with my fears of China.

 

[Darkpriest667]

I never said the U.S. was involved militarily, as in forces on the ground. Giving military aid as in arms can also be considered military involvement. I'm sure Russia sees it that way.

My opinions are based on the sentiments of some here that seem to think we should be more militarily involved.

We're involved, just not officially. There are boots on the ground. I'm certain we have Tier 1 units over there.

 

[easy rider]

We're involved, just not officially. There are boots on the ground. I'm certain we have Tier 1 units over there.

I know we have forces in the area, not sure they are actually in Ukraine. Biden hasn't sent me my briefing yet.

 

[Wiliamr]

Flew in from Miami Beach BOAC
Didn't get to bed last night
On the way, the paper bag was on my knee
Man, I had a dreadful flight

I'm back in the U.S.S.R.
You don't know how lucky you are, boy
Back in the U.S.S.R. (Yeah)

Been away so long, I hardly knew the place
Gee, it's good to be back home
Leave it 'till tomorrow to unpack my case
Honey, disconnect the phone


I'm back in the U.S.S.R
You don't know how lucky you are, boy
Back in the U.S.
Back in the U.S.
Back in the U.S.S.R.


Well, the Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the West behind
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout
That Georgia's always on my mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mind
Oh, come on!




Yeah, I'm back in the U.S.S.R.
You don't know how lucky you are, boys
Back in the U.S.S.R.


Well, the Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the West behind
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout
That Georgia's always on my mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mind



Oh show me round your snow-peaked mountains way down south
Take me to your daddy's farm
Let me hear your balalaikas ringing out
Come and keep your comrade warm


I'm back in the U.S.S.R. (Hey)
You don't know how lucky you are, boys
Back in the U.S.S.R

The Beatles, Track 1 on the White Album

 

[Havok1]

All else aside, sanctions have never accomplished anything really.

they can when they are imposed with the goal of affecting the country being sanctioned, as opposed to the goal being to affect the emotions of the people who want the country to be sanctioned.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Do you feel like I attacked you cycleguy?

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I don't feel like digging up the exact quote, but the "go die with the other 10,000s that have died for Putin" certainty didn't feel like love and kindness...

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[ZX9RCAM]

I don't feel like digging up the exact quote, but the "go die with the other 10,000s that have died for Putin" certainty didn't feel like love and kindness...

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Post #1961....

 

[cycleguy2300]

I'm more worried about China than Russia. Look how well it worked out for the U.S. the last time we helped a nation fight a Russian invasion.

Just a tweak or consideration...

You fight the immediate threat, not the "biggest" threat or a threat that may come about. Obviously I'm not saying 100% of our attention should be at Russia, but if we show we carry a big stick with Russia, we may be able to speak to China a little more softly....

I rather like the selling/giving Ukraine as much military hardware as they can take. I'm all for individuals going over and fighting/helping, but I don't know we need our military there just yet.

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[Younggun]

they can when they are imposed with the goal of affecting the country being sanctioned, as opposed to the goal being to affect the emotions of the people who want the country to be sanctioned.

I haven’t seen any examples of this historically. I’d be willing to admit being wrong on that though.

It seems it usually just bolsters the propaganda of the opposing government and helps convince the population of the sanctioned nation that the sanctioning nation really is out to get them.

That said, I’m not against them. I just don’t think they are as effective as people think at preventing conflicts. If anything, they might weaning the sanctioned country’s economy in certain ways making them less effective when the conflict begins. But that tends to take time to become apparent and requires very strong sanctions along with major embargo’s on oil, steel, etc.

 

[easy rider]

Just a tweak or consideration...

You fight the immediate threat, not the "biggest" threat or a threat that may come about. Obviously I'm not saying 100% of our attention should be at Russia, but if we show we carry a big stick with Russia, we may be able to speak to China a little more softly....

I rather like the selling/giving Ukraine as much military hardware as they can take. I'm all for individuals going over and fighting/helping, but I don't know we need our military there just yet.

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Well, with Biden in office, and those behind him, I think our chances of fooling anyone we're tough is out the window. I'm all for supplying our allies, but I'm old enough to remember Russia's invasion of Afghanistan. They were our very good friends when it was in their best interest too.

 

[cycleguy2300]

I haven’t seen any examples of this historically. I’d be willing to admit being wrong on that though.

It seems it usually just bolsters the propaganda of the opposing government and helps convince the population of the sanctioned nation that the sanctioning nation really is out to get them.

That said, I’m not against them. I just don’t think they are as effective as people think at preventing conflicts. If anything, they might weaning the sanctioned country’s economy in certain ways making them less effective when the conflict begins. But that tends to take time to become apparent and requires very strong sanctions along with major embargo’s on oil, steel, etc.

There are some workarounds, but the Russian Economy is surprisingly small given its land area and sanctions will choke off the little bit of fat (i.e. production capacity available for redirection to the war effort) that is there is. NATO has something like 10x of the best case Russian capacity for a war economy iirc. That doesnt include nations "Friendly" with Ukraine or NATO non-member-allies...

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[Younggun]

There are some workarounds, but the Russian Economy is surprisingly small given its land area and sanctions will choke off the little bit of fat (i.e. production capacity available for redirection to the war effort) that is there is. NATO has something like 10x of the best case Russian capacity for a war economy iirc. That doesnt include nations "Friendly" with Ukraine or NATO non-member-allies...

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I do t disagree with that. My issue is more with the line of thinking that sanctions will prevent a conflict or many expect it to have a much greater effect. And ignore that propaganda that can be generated.

I’m really not anti sanction. I just try to be as realistic as possible about what the effects will be.

 

[cycleguy2300]

I do t disagree with that. My issue is more with the line of thinking that sanctions will prevent a conflict or many expect it to have a much greater effect. And ignore that propaganda that can be generated.

I’m really not anti sanction. I just try to be as realistic as possible about what the effects will be.

Its akin to taking away a phone from a kid as punishment for committing a burglary...

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[easy rider]

I do t disagree with that. My issue is more with the line of thinking that sanctions will prevent a conflict or many expect it to have a much greater effect. And ignore that propaganda that can be generated.

I’m really not anti sanction. I just try to be as realistic as possible about what the effects will be.

I'm not in favor of banning everything Russian, even the people that have nothing to do with the Russian government. Boycotting a Russian restaurant in the United States because of Russia invading Ukraine is just plain stupid. That would be like boycotting a Cuban restaurant in Miami.

Sure, one can say sanctions don't really stop Russia from invading, but then I remember Trump threatening sanctions on Mexico and magically the caravans heading to the U.S. border started slowing. I don't see much stopping Russia from their actions in Ukraine unless it's from their own resolve, or, a declaration of war from NATO, and I don't think anything good will come of that. If the Biden administration wants to stop invasions let's see him stop the invasion into the U.S.

 

[Havok1]

I haven’t seen any examples of this historically. I’d be willing to admit being wrong on that though.

It seems it usually just bolsters the propaganda of the opposing government and helps convince the population of the sanctioned nation that the sanctioning nation really is out to get them.

That said, I’m not against them. I just don’t think they are as effective as people think at preventing conflicts. If anything, they might weaning the sanctioned country’s economy in certain ways making them less effective when the conflict begins. But that tends to take time to become apparent and requires very strong sanctions along with major embargo’s on oil, steel, etc.

Iran is(was) a good example, but overall I agree with you.