Open Carry

[APatriot]

There're been a few folks questioning how I came up with the almost $700 figure for our permits. People who know me trust my word, but since ya'll don't know me....

First, we do not live in the city. We took the required class while gas was about $4.00 per gallon & I drive a truck - not some little econo box.

Breakfast: $15.00
Lunch: $25.00
Rnd trip gas for class: $20.00
Class: $300.00
License fees: $250.00
Semi-auto rental: $20.00
Ammo: $30.00
Gas for second set of prints x 2 trips: $40.00
Postage to mail apps: $20.00

My calculator indicates the above figures total $720.00.

I don't feel anyone should have to pay for a permit (permission slip) to carry. The 2A doesn't say anything about taxing us for the "privilege" of carrying. For it to cost so much is obscene. And having to rent a semi or have a restricted permit!?! Give me a freakin' break!



Not really. How many CHL holders actually knew of the petition? If only 100,000 of the 400,00 CHL holders knew of the petition and 65,000 signed it, then the majority would support it. Without all of the applicable variables available it's impossible to come to an accurate conclusion. BTW, the way you worded you first request could be construed as the entire pro-gun community, not just the TX community.

Regarding "schooling" for either OC or CC: what ever happened to personal responsibility? You carry a gun, you know the laws. If you don't, shame on you - and you pay the penalty. I've taken classes in 2 states now and did not learn anything in either class that I didn't already know from doing a bit of light reading on my own. Now if the classes actually taught something applicable such as drawing & firing under duress.... might be worth the time and money. One class at Gunsite did cover firearm handling in more depth than others, but it still wasn't much more the the bare minimum required by the state.

I've talked with a couple of the local Sheriff and a few of the PD in the nearest town, they've all stated that everyone in this area carries, with or without a permit. Haven't heard of any "idiots" going "postal", even without the state required training. Personally, I take their "everyone" statement with a grain of salt; but I "assume" they mean quite a few of the local folks carry.

Spin away my friend. "OC simply ain't goin to happen" at least not for non-CHL....

 

[Cliffh]

I tend to agree with your the principle you are speaking to, but your math is flawed.

First, you can't count your meals. You would need to eat those anyways. Could you eat cheaper at home? Sure, but if that's a big deal, pack some food and take it along. Gas? if you don't live in the city that's your choice and anything you need to get in the city will require you to drive and spend gas money. That is your choice where you live. Gun rental? most people have their own guns. If you intend to carry you can't rent a gun for that so you'll need to buy some anyways at some point. Prints and trips for prints? most CHL classes give this as part of the fee. We paid $125 each and got all of that included in one trip. So $550 or $275 each is a more realistic number. Still a lot of money, I'll agree. But that is how it is. I don't like paying $65 a year for new plates for my car, and $45 (or whatever it is) to have an inspection. But that is what it is. None of that is going away.

Of course I disagree with your assumption that my stated expenses are incorrect. All of the listed expenses were incurred obtaining my CHL, hence they are part of the cost of obtaining the CHL. And your assumption that I took the class without having a carry piece verges on insulting.

I do own at least one carry piece - I prefer not to state whether or not I have more than one. At the time I took the course I had a revolver, with plans to aquire a semi-auto. So I should have not rented a range gun to take the test and just be satisfied with a restricted permission slip?

If I have to make a special trip into town to take a state required class I should not include the travel expenses? I wouldn't have made the trip if the state didn't require that I do. Even state and federal government agencies allow travel expenses to be counted for required classes.

If you will reread my previous post you'll see that I listed the prints as a second trip for prints. That would be because the original prints taken during the class were not acceptable to DPS. Since DPS notified us of the unacceptable prints almost a month apart, we had to make two seperate trips for re-printing.

Even if you subtract the cost of meals, the cost for two permits was still almost $700.

APatriot

I notice you didn't address my question, so I'll ask again: How many CHL holders actually knew of the petition? Without that info, it's impossible to say whether or not your assertion was correct.

"OC simply ain't goin to happen" at least not for non-CHL...

You never know. More than one state allows OC for non-CHL/CCW holders now; and that change came about in some of them in the not-to-distant past. As long as the advocates for OC continue to pursue the matter there's no reason why TX can't become one also. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean it can't happen....

 

[navyguy]

Of course I disagree with your assumption that my stated expenses are incorrect. All of the listed expenses were incurred obtaining my CHL, hence they are part of the cost of obtaining the CHL. And your assumption that I took the class without having a carry piece verges on insulting.

I can assure you there was no insult intended in my remarks. Merely a few guys having a discussion was my take on it. You didn't explained the gun rental situation, just that you needed to rent a gun for the class.

Fact of the matter is whatever the cost, be it $500 or $700 unfortunately that is how it is. I said I agreed with your assertion that the costs to obtain a CHL were excessive.

Honestly, I just grateful we have some fairly liberal gun laws in Texas.

 

[APatriot]

Of course I disagree with your assumption that my stated expenses are incorrect. All of the listed expenses were incurred obtaining my CHL, hence they are part of the cost of obtaining the CHL. And your assumption that I took the class without having a carry piece verges on insulting.

I do own at least one carry piece - I prefer not to state whether or not I have more than one. At the time I took the course I had a revolver, with plans to aquire a semi-auto. So I should have not rented a range gun to take the test and just be satisfied with a restricted permission slip?

If I have to make a special trip into town to take a state required class I should not include the travel expenses? I wouldn't have made the trip if the state didn't require that I do. Even state and federal government agencies allow travel expenses to be counted for required classes.

If you will reread my previous post you'll see that I listed the prints as a second trip for prints. That would be because the original prints taken during the class were not acceptable to DPS. Since DPS notified us of the unacceptable prints almost a month apart, we had to make two seperate trips for re-printing.

Even if you subtract the cost of meals, the cost for two permits was still almost $700.

APatriot

I notice you didn't address my question, so I'll ask again: How many CHL holders actually knew of the petition? Without that info, it's impossible to say whether or not your assertion was correct.



You never know. More than one state allows OC for non-CHL/CCW holders now; and that change came about in some of them in the not-to-distant past. As long as the advocates for OC continue to pursue the matter there's no reason why TX can't become one also. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean it can't happen....

Answer: I would think if the OC enthusiasm was as great as many pro-OC folks want to make it out to be....they would be "fighting" for a petition and crawling over each other to sign it. The enthusiasm is simply not equal to the hype some give it on this forum. Absence a "fight" for a petition, you have to go with the 65k < 400K CHL as indicative, at least, to the fact OC is not as popular as some want to make it out to be. Again, I support OC for CHL. Why? idiot factor.

 

[IXLR8]

Someone probably already mentioned this but... If OC is passed I would like a share of the proceeds for printing 30.06 signs. Literally there would be more signs than people that carry. Every community, every store, bank, and supermarket would be posted.

Apparently the The 5 Man Electrical Band, had foreseen this in 1969 with their song "Sign" (Just replace Long haired hippie people with "OC's carrying")

And the sign said "Long-haired freaky people need not apply"
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said "You look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do"
So I took off my hat, I said "Imagine that. Huh! Me workin' for you!"
Whoa-oh-oh

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

And the sign said anybody caught trespassin' would be shot on sight
So I jumped on the fence and-a yelled at the house, "Hey! What gives you
the
right?"
"To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in"
"If God was here he'd tell you to your face, Man, you're some kinda sinner"

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

Now, hey you, mister, can't you read?
You've got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't even watch, no you can't eat
You ain't supposed to be here
The sign said you got to have a membership card to get inside
Ugh!

 

[APatriot]

Someone probably already mentioned this but... If OC is passed I would like a share of the proceeds for printing 30.06 signs. Literally there would be more signs than people that carry. Every community, every store, bank, and supermarket would be posted.

Apparently the The 5 Man Electrical Band, had foreseen this in 1969 with their song "Sign"

And the sign said "Long-haired freaky people need not apply"
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said "You look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do"
So I took off my hat, I said "Imagine that. Huh! Me workin' for you!"
Whoa-oh-oh

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

And the sign said anybody caught trespassin' would be shot on sight
So I jumped on the fence and-a yelled at the house, "Hey! What gives you
the
right?"
"To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in"
"If God was here he'd tell you to your face, Man, you're some kinda sinner"

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

Now, hey you, mister, can't you read?
You've got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't even watch, no you can't eat
You ain't supposed to be here
The sign said you got to have a membership card to get inside
Ugh!

If your point is that OC if passed would force 30.06 signs to grow like weeds, I never even thought of that. Great point. Now, I wonder what the pro-OCers have to say about this? Can't wait to hear it!!

 

[navyguy]

If your point is that OC if passed would force 30.06 signs to grow like weeds, I never even thought of that. Great point. Now, I wonder what the pro-OCers have to say about this? Can't wait to hear it!!

I'm in the middle on this, But just like "will gun violence go up with CHL" do we really know more 30.06 will go up with open carry? Can we look to the states that have OC and see that happening?

 

[Texan2]

While I dont care one way or another if OC ever happened...reality says we wont see it anytime in the foreseeable future. Nobody in Austin is ready to take on the monumental fight that an OC bill would bring. Plenty are ready to make sure it never happens.

 

[Cliffh]

Navyguy

As you said, I wasn't clear in my original posting. As for my remark, will you accept that it was late at night after a not-so-good day?

IMO, TX gun laws aren't as liberal as some other states. I only have personal experiences in CA, AZ & KY for any extended time and I must say that both KY & AZ laws seem to be more friendly. For one, both allow OC, without permission slips from the .gov. Last I knew, AZ was installing lockers outside of state government offices so one could store their carry piece before entering the building - and you kept the key. Didn't actually see one, but that is what was being reported. Of course, it's much better here than in CA. FWIW, we were able to obtain AZ permits for 2 for less than $400 total, including 200 rounds each, gas & meals. ;-)

There were concerns in AZ that many businesses would start posting no carry signs. It didn't happen on any great scale. Sure, some did post the signs, but not many - only 1 that I know of in a town with a population of over 200,000. (That one wasn't even legal, just a piece of paper with the international NO symbol and a handgun drawn on it). I heard stories that some of those businesses were convinced to change their minds and remove the signs after a few pro-gun advocates stopped by and talked (reasonably) with them. The expressed feelings from the pro-gun community regarding those who didn't remove their signs was simple - don't shop there. Not that it really hurt their bottom line, but they were made aware that the gunnies weren't shopping there any longer. And some businesses changed their minds after realizing they were actually safer with legally armed citizens in their shop. Even if you did carry in one of the posted businesses the most they could do is ask you to leave; if you didn't you could be charged with misdemeanor trespass - no gun charges involved.

If the people of TX are as gun friendly as they'd like the U.S. to believe, why would they start posting 30.06 signs just because OC was allowed? Seems as if the anti-carry businesses would already be posted.

OC is a political hot potatoe. Education is key. Not only of the pro-gun community but for everyone, including politicians. OC'ing in and of itself has not been proven to be hazardous to one's health. It can be "sticky" at times, such as when some bliss-ninny gets her panties in a bunch and calls in the LEO about "OMG, a man with a gun!". Again, education is key in that situation. Hopefully the LEO will be informed as to the (new) laws and pass on the information to "her". If not, well, he will have to be brought up to speed too. If I'm not mistaken Virginia (it may be another state, memory's fading and too late to research) is going through those kind of growing pains now, but it's working out.

If the local Sheriff and LEO are to be believed that a lot of the residents in this area already CC without a .gov permission slip, what difference would it make if it were legal to OC without a permission slip? It doesn't seem to be a reasonable assumption that crime would go up just because the locals would then be carrying legally. If the "idiots" are already carrying, I'd feel more comfortable actually seeing the weapon. Takes out the question of "Is he going to pull a gun when he removes his hand from his pocket"? If he were to be reaching for his weapon, having it on his hip would be a bit more obvious. Also, I don't believe it's been proven that one is more likely to use a weapon just because it's outside his clothing rather than being concealed.

As for carrying a badge or ID card next to the OC'd weapon; that's been discussed on other boards where the general consensus was that it might cause too much confusion. The general populace might mistake the OC'er as a LEO. Some others thought that it might be a bit pretentious. A few indicated they considered carrying a badge to fall more into the realm of "mall ninjas" and they really didn't want to go there. My thoughts on the subject are if an ID card is required, it can be presented to the LEO answering the MWAG call if necessary.

I'll take OC whichever way I can get it, with or without a .gov permission slip.

 

[tedwitt]

Good Point, I live in Texas and I don't know why. I guess there are so many Texans they have no control. Could be our represenitives.

 

[Carry]

Why does it matter which way you'd carry? Just have the availability that offers different means of carrying to the populous. If that means that those that choose to carry OC will and those that are licensed to carry Concealed will as well when they choose to. Just because a state allows OC doesn't infringe on anybody's closedminded rights that think that people should have just one choice. America is the land of opportunity gentlemen. People deserve a choice.

Im with Texas_teacher. Choice.

Ditto.

 

[navyguy]

"As you said, I wasn't clear in my original posting. As for my remark, will you accept that it was late at night after a not-so-good day?"

--------------------

No problem.

And I know there are other states that are more liberal with gun laws, but there are a lot that are less so. We just need to continue to be good citizens in respect to how we handle the gun rights we have today, which can pave the way for less restrictions. Every time I read about a CHL holder doing some asinine thing with a gun it makes me think we took a step backwards.

 

[Carry]

Bottomline, OC enthusiasm is not as widespread as some would like it to be.

Perhaps because of ... acceptance of the current laws? complacency? happy to at least have CC? concerned it might stir up another reaction and potentially lose CC rights? so much going on in our current gov't and economy that OC has taken a back seat?

 

[Silverhair]

Open Carry would be handy for me. I have a CHL, and carry any time I am away from the house. For almost all situations in my life I would prefer CC. However, there is one time when I would like to OC. Once every two weeks I have use an ATM at night. I don't use the drive-up but instead use the walk-up one. That way I have greater visibility around me and greater freedom of movement. I use while frequently, every few seconds, looking up and around me for any one suspicious. I would like to be able to lift my shirt and drop it behind the pistol so that my gun could be easily seen. That way any potential mugger would know that I was a very high-risk target, and would decide to wait for someone else.

 

[Cliffh]

"As you said, I wasn't clear in my original posting. As for my remark, will you accept that it was late at night after a not-so-good day?"

--------------------

No problem.

And I know there are other states that are more liberal with gun laws, but there are a lot that are less so. We just need to continue to be good citizens in respect to how we handle the gun rights we have today, which can pave the way for less restrictions. Every time I read about a CHL holder doing some asinine thing with a gun it makes me think we took a step backwards.

Same here. The anti's do their best to make every incident as visible as possible.

Carry's got a point there. Acceptance & complacency regarding the situation as it is will most likely not cause the issue to remain static, instead we'll see a slow eroding of our gun rights.

Silverhair

Aren't you concerned that instead of warning the would-be thief that you're armed you'd actually be making yourself a target by OC'ing? There are some who seem to think that would be the most likely outcome of OC.

APatriot

Absence a "fight" for a petition, you have to go with the 65k < 400K CHL as indicative, at least, to the fact OC is not as popular as some want to make it out to be.

I hear where you're coming from - but - I will not accept flawed, inaccurate or incomplete data in support of a conclusion. In just the last couple of pages of this thread we've heard from at least 2 people who never even heard of the petition (myself included), there's no way of telling who else didn't hear of it. As to making a fight for OC, it's hard to do much without money, and lots of it. Writing letters to various individuals & organizations, talking with others and the such are the only ways most of us can try to make a difference. To really be effective, a campaign has to reach, educate and motivate those who are not directly affected by the legislation; in the case of OC that would be those who don't carry. Of course one would hope that their campaign would sway people to vote their way.

IMO, letter writing campaigns to legislators are ineffectual; petitions don't seem to be much better. Too many of them seem to think they know what's best for us, regardless of what we believe.

It's possible that if all of those who suport OC in whatever form would start writing to organizations such as the TSRA and NRA those organizations might start putting pressure on our legislators to introduce and/or support a bill for OC.

 

[codeman]

Post Deleted

 

[SC-Texas]

Frankly, i doubt you will see that many new 30.06 signs once OC is passed.

If the stores put them up . . . . we will do the same thing that we do now . . . publicly shame them into taking them down and spend our $$$$ elsewhere until they come down.

 

[.3937 inches]

I Googled Open Carry in Texas some months back when I was stumping for Debra Medina, just to see if there was a large, organized and unified effort to get this right acknowledged by the state and I didn't find anything that struck me as having a shot at it. I would spend my money and time generously to such an effort though if one arises.

 

[Texas42]

Post #600 for OC thread!!!!!

 

[.3937 inches]

Post #600 for OC thread!!!!!

Where is it I wanna read it!?


I was 599 and now 601. That means you and I made an OC Sandwich, me being the bread and you the meat. Wait a minute that don't sound too cool . . . . .