I have mixed feelings on this....

[Johnny Diamond]

Seems non-LEO have been pretty clear on their perception. Right, wrong or indifferent, the consensus is it was handled poorly and not the behavior most expect.

LEO-oriented folks are adamant, not that it was good so much as it was legal, but for the most part, endorse the actions of the Officer most others find inappropriate.

My mixed feelings stem from the disparity between what the two groups perceive as acceptable behavior.

It does very much clear up confusion regarding how the general public views LE and the way LE views the rest of us. I've personally taken exception to the increasingly heavy-handed attitude of Law Enforcement though it's hard to blame them in these times.

Here's my quandary; who is the arbiter? The law? What is the general level of respect for the law in light of the increasing abuses, perceived militarization, "lawfare" or candidly, this discussion? How do we fix it? Is it even broken?

Is this a result of Soros-backed DAs not prosecuting crime, the "mostly peaceful" riots celebrated by the Left and Media? The persecution and demonization of LEOs by the Left? Is it a back lash by LE due to their frustration?

Whatever it is, the us versus them mentality doesn't lead anywhere good. I miss Mayberry

My questions, observations, as I mentioned/lamented also
Johnny

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[Tblack89]

Seems non-LEO have been pretty clear on their perception. Right, wrong or indifferent, the consensus is it was handled poorly and not the behavior most expect.

LEO-oriented folks are adamant, not that it was good so much as it was legal, but for the most part, endorse the actions of the Officer most others find inappropriate.

My mixed feelings stem from the disparity between what the two groups perceive as acceptable behavior.

It does very much clear up confusion regarding how the general public views LE and the way LE views the rest of us. I've personally taken exception to the increasingly heavy-handed attitude of Law Enforcement though it's hard to blame them in these times.

Here's my quandary; who is the arbiter? The law? What is the general level of respect for the law in light of the increasing abuses, perceived militarization, "lawfare" or candidly, this discussion? How do we fix it? Is it even broken?

Is this a result of Soros-backed DAs not prosecuting crime, the "mostly peaceful" riots celebrated by the Left and Media? The persecution and demonization of LEOs by the Left? Is it a back lash by LE due to their frustration?

Whatever it is, the us versus them mentality doesn't lead anywhere good. I miss Mayberry

From a non law enforcement perspective, the biggest issue is the justification by the general public of it being acceptable for mistreatment of certain individuals and not others.

This has been going on before my time and will continue after, you cannot pick and choose whose rights can be violated just because you don’t agree with a persons style or attitude. If everyone is held to different standards and people view mistreatment ok for one, they shouldn’t be surprised when it starts happening to people they deem better. The innocence project is a great place to see how that type of attitude works and what can happen to a person based off a thought or feeling.

It starts with basic rights for every individual equally, the whole innocent until proven guilty, has been guilty until proven innocent for far too long. Even in this thread there are a ton who have already convicted and sentenced the officer off what? An opinion or feeling, this happens every day and nobody cares until it happens to an individual they relate too.

People can’t say an individual deserves a treatment they wouldn’t accept because they think or feel the person is a criminal or lesser than them. This will never end because there will never be a day where people quit thinking they are better than others, or a different class deserves different treatment than they do.

If you want change, it needs to be universal and not only who you deem is deserving of better. Look at how divided the country is, that’s not new, a certain class of people are just finally starting to see. The ones who have lived it don’t care because it’s normal and been their life forever, so it’s nothing new.

 

[Whistler]

I don't understand what you're saying. Who is being treated better or different?

I think that a lot about Police interactions, permissable actions, and public attitude has changed over my lifetime.

That's what my post was about, perception of non-LE versus LE perception.

I don't agree the Officer, in this case, acted appropriately regardless of whether it's legally justified. That's just my opinion and the thread made me think about how folks were aligned.

I don't think anyone was better or worse than any other, except Karen, she should be flogged.

 

[Havok1]

You appear stuck on what the deputy "could" have done.

What the deputy DID was objectively reasonable and what else "could" have been doesnt matter.

He "could have" requested CBP to bring a mobile xray truck to scan the house... but that would have been unreasonable.

The officer made reasonable efforts to gather information and ended up at the apartment where the disturbance had been reported and where prior violent disturbances had been heard... an officer needn't pursue all avenues for gathering information so long as reasonable efforts are made, just as an officer needn't try each option on a force continuum before using deadly force when it is immediately required.

Reaction times what they are you can think of a subject holding holding a gun at their side as a bit of shrödinger's cat where the man with the gun at his side generates a reaction in the deputy based on the POTENTIAL future state, and because one of the unknowable future states would cause serious bodily harm or death to the deputy he cannot ignore that potential state and must act as if that future, unreactable state is already reached.





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The only thing im really stuck on are the facts. When I read the comments supporting the officers actions and they are based on inaccuracies, such as the suggestion that the officer met with the neighbor who claimed to have heard the arguing/fighting in the apartment above her, which anyone who watched the body cam or read the report would know that she never spoke with police until after the shooting, or you making up an entire series of events that you use to justify the officers actions.

What could have happened does matter though, because the events did not have to unfold the way they did. This is the same department that recently received national attention because a couple cops unloaded their guns into a police car with a handcuffed suspect in the back when an acorn fell on the car and they thought the guy in the car was shooting at them. One officer even claimed he had been shot. The tax payers are about to pay out the ass for these two incidents, and the focus on a guy answering his door armed and within his rights completely overlooks a serious competency issue with officers that have received all this training that you speak so highly of.

 

[cycleguy2300]

The only thing im really stuck on are the facts. When I read the comments supporting the officers actions and they are based on inaccuracies, such as the suggestion that the officer met with the neighbor who claimed to have heard the arguing/fighting in the apartment above her, which anyone who watched the body cam or read the report would know that she never spoke with police until after the shooting, or you making up an entire series of events that you use to justify the officers actions.

What could have happened does matter though, because the events did not have to unfold the way they did. This is the same department that recently received national attention because a couple cops unloaded their guns into a police car with a handcuffed suspect in the back when an acorn fell on the car and they thought the guy in the car was shooting at them. One officer even claimed he had been shot. The tax payers are about to pay out the ass for these two incidents, and the focus on a guy answering his door armed and within his rights completely overlooks a serious competency issue with officers that have received all this training that you speak so highly of.

"To know what would have happened, child? No. Nobody is ever told that.” — Aslan

20/20 Hindsight, takes no role, only what was reasonably believed AT THE INSTANT.

Otherwise some kid pointing a BB gun that is indistinguishable from a real firearm (never mind the fact it can cause serious bodily injury or death on its own) who gets shot would generate endless "but it was fake" and demands for the officer to have asked the kid if it was real or not before shooting.

I'll give your ideas the benefit of the doubt and say they are short sighted and the consequences would result in capricious and arbitrary determinations of justification. YOU are held to much the same standard, dont paint uourself and others into a corner where acting reasonably in the face of an immediate and life threatening event puts you in jail because the thing you stopped didnt happen... i.e. you shoot a man who pulls a knife on you in a dark alley and holds his hand out. He was simply asking you if you had any cheese to slice for you. Where you actually robbed? Didnhe hanf over a signed and notarized demand letter listing the items he wanted to take from you? But you shot him anyway..

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[cycleguy2300]

The only thing im really stuck on are the facts. When I read the comments supporting the officers actions and they are based on inaccuracies, such as the suggestion that the officer met with the neighbor who claimed to have heard the arguing/fighting in the apartment above her, which anyone who watched the body cam or read the report would know that she never spoke with police until after the shooting, or you making up an entire series of events that you use to justify the officers actions.

What could have happened does matter though, because the events did not have to unfold the way they did. This is the same department that recently received national attention because a couple cops unloaded their guns into a police car with a handcuffed suspect in the back when an acorn fell on the car and they thought the guy in the car was shooting at them. One officer even claimed he had been shot. The tax payers are about to pay out the ass for these two incidents, and the focus on a guy answering his door armed and within his rights completely overlooks a serious competency issue with officers that have received all this training that you speak so highly of.

There is no reasonable, lawful purpose, other than confrontation and intimidation that was to be accomplished by opening the door with a gun in hand to a deputy clearly and loudly announcing himself.

Exercising rights comes with risks and if you make stupid choices that infringe others right to peace and security of their person you just may have bad things happen to you. If you drive stupid, you may crash. If you drive stupid around a cop and dont stop the may PIT you, if I carry a gun it comes with its risks and if I pull or display a gun inside or outside my own home this is the predictable and reasonable result.

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[popsgarland]

There's a lot of post and opinions about what was done, what should have been done, what they would have done, etc,etc.

No one, I mean no one knows exactly what they would do in this situation. All anyone can do is speculate about what to do and what they would do. Until your in this situation all anyone can do is talk about what they would and what the police officer should have done.

Until your in this situation you do not know exactly what you would have done.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Things happen quick and FV calls are some of the most dangerous.



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[Tblack89]

I don't understand what you're saying. Who is being treated better or different?

This case for 1, foul play is being called on the officer and everyone has an opinion, why this case? Because it made the news? Because he’s an airman and some of y’all can relate? Because he was at home? Because your opinion doesn’t agree with the law? Because the officer exercised his right? The same right you and I are able to exercise if found in a dangerous situation.

Would you feel so strongly if the individual would’ve had a criminal record? Or if he was well known to police as a threat? Or if the neighbors saw him beat his woman all the time? Just because that wasn’t the case doesn’t mean it wasn’t a possibility.


Real abuse happens everyday and no one cares, why? Because you don’t see it on the news? Because you think a certain description deserves it? Because it’s not worth your time? Because in your opinion they are a criminal even though no crime has taken place? Because you think they are guilty? See how things you perceive bad alter your thoughts and blind you to anything else.

This case is far from abuse or anything other then proper protocol, you have lived a very sheltered life, or, just chosen to look the other way if this qualifies as abuse.


Thanks to body cameras a lot of truly dirty cops have been caught and dealt with. They have had to answer for their actions because they finally did something, caught on camera, to someone who could speak and others would believe or listen to. How many people were done dirty before that 1 person and nobody cared?


Officers are people, I give them the respect they give me. I have the right to carry a firearm, I also respect the fact they have no idea who I am or what I’m going to do.

When pulled over, I roll my window down and keep both hands on the wheel. As soon as the officer approaches, I say “hello sir, I just want to let you know I have firearms in the vehicle”. Not only can I see him instantly relax, I rarely ever get a ticket and am told I’m not who they are worried about, the ones hiding it is who they are concerned with.

What I don’t do is show him a gun as soon as he walks up, or start digging through shit simply because I can. That is not smart, even though I have the right to do that, I mean I am in my vehicle right?

If someone breaks into your house you have the right to defend it. After you have defended it, I would assume you would call the police to report the burglary and shooting. Even though it’s your right, would you greet the officer with the pistol in your hand? I personally wouldn’t, why? It’s not smart to call in a crime and then approach the responder even slightly resembling a threat. There could be consequences.

 

[Whistler]

Why this case? Because it was posted for discussion.

I don't know about the news I don't watch it but I'll take your word for it. For the record, I'm not talking about justification or case law or if the Officer will be charged or not, I can't influence that and to be a little selfish, don't care much.

I wouldn't feel a bit differently, my point doesn't consider past infractions, character or anything else not on the video, real or imagined. I wouldn't open the door to known LE armed, maybe at all, but to me, it doesn't change my opinion it was nothing to get shot over. Wrist twist flip and action/reaction notwithstanding.

My life is a blessing, all considered, sheltered or otherwise, thanks, and I was speaking generally about abuses but as I've made clear, if that's proper protocol, we have a training issue. Once again, only my opinion.

I couldn't care any less about what you or anyone thinks is smart. I don't owe deference to anyone including LE and don't think rolling down your window and yelling something about firearms in the car is the smart move either.

See how people can think differently and it's okay? Why is it you feel people are not smart if they disagree with your position? I don't think you're stupid, just wrong, in my ever-so-important-opinion and that's okay too.

I am a bit concerned about your self professed change in behavior when a LEO approaches, just another guy with a shitty job. And that's where we differ, I shouldn't have a reason to be nervous and act like an apple polisher but then videos like this...

I think your hypothetical scenario about running up on police armed, after you called in a shooting is just, how do I put this delicately... ill advised.

This is a discussion, it's how rational folks work out their differences or waste an afternoon, no prizes for right or wrong and absolutely nothing personal. If I said something you took that way, it was likely my warped humor.

 

[Tblack89]

I think your hypothetical scenario about running up on police armed, after you called in a shooting is just, how do I put this delicately... ill advised.

Why? A domestic violence was called in and the alleged suspect approached the officer with a pistol in hand.

He just allegedly assaulted someone and now has a gun, that’s his right, it’s also the officers right to defend himself if he perceives that as a threat.

I wouldn't feel a bit differently, my point doesn't consider past infractions, character or anything else not on the video, real or imagined. I wouldn't open the door to known LE armed, maybe at all, but to me, it doesn't change my opinion it was nothing to get shot over. Wrist twist flip and action/reaction notwithstanding.

Watch that, should he have waited for this to possibly happen? That individual was suspected of a crime and only walking down the road.

My life is a blessing, all considered, sheltered or otherwise, thanks, and I was speaking generally about abuses but as I've made clear, if that's proper protocol, we have a training issue. Once again, only my opinion.

I’m glad you haven’t seen what I have. We’ve had very different lives apparently, this honestly isn’t abuse. I hope you never are on the receiving end of any type of abuse.

I couldn't care any less about what you or anyone thinks is smart. I don't owe deference to anyone including LE and don't think rolling down your window and yelling something about firearms in the car is the smart move either.

I couldn’t care less about anyone’s thoughts in general but this is a discussion as you mentioned and I have a right to my opinion just as you.

I don’t recall ever saying I roll my window down and yelling something about a firearm out of my window ( nice dramatization though). Try not showing a LTC when asked for ID, you risk losing it, you are expected to show it. I share the same curtesy you are expected to show, only I don’t believe in a LTC.

You don’t have to think it’s smart, I never said it was, I said it was respect. I said it wasn’t smart to start digging through your car with a firearm or showing 1 for no reason simply because you can. If the officer spots it he could feel threatened and defend himself.

See how people can think differently and it's okay? Why is it you feel people are not smart if they disagree with your position? I don't think you're stupid, just wrong, in my ever-so-important-opinion and that's okay too.

I definitely do, we think completely different and I feel we’ve had a very civil discussion explaining our views. I don’t have to agree with you to still respect your opinion. I feel you have been pretty respectful in communication and explaining your thoughts, which is why I’m conversating with you. I’m not picking on you, solely agreeing to disagree while discussing difference of opinions.

I never said people aren’t smart, I couldn’t care less if anyone agrees with me. I said certain actions are not smart ( I’m unsure of how you keep hearing things I’m clearly not saying). I don’t believe you are stupid either, I don’t feel I’ve insinuated that or even insulted you. You have a right to your opinion, as do I, you don’t have to like it, it’s ok.

I am a bit concerned about your self professed change in behavior when a LEO approaches, just another guy with a shitty job. And that's where we differ, I shouldn't have a reason to be nervous and act like an apple polisher but then videos like this...

You are concerned that when I’m pulled over for a traffic violation I show respect? Why? How do you respond during a traffic stop?

It’s easy to talk about it online, it gets real when they unbuckle you, pull you out of your car and slide you under it in handcuffs. I promise you there is nothing you will be able to do when it happens, all for not being respectful.

This is a discussion, it's how rational folks work out their differences or waste an afternoon, no prizes for right or wrong and absolutely nothing personal. If I said something you took that way, it was likely my warped humor.

I agree with this, not offended at all, I’ve appreciated the conversation.

 

[Whistler]

Sure, we disagree on a number of topics, I think a rebuttal would be redundant.

I try to insert a little humor in my posts, at least it's funny to me and often folks won't get my warped humor.

I'm absolutely nothing like you described, maybe we'll meet sometime and have a beer or better, a nice single malt, and dispel some of the misperceptions.

 

[Havok1]

This case for 1, foul play is being called on the officer and everyone has an opinion, why this case? Because it made the news? Because he’s an airman and some of y’all can relate? Because he was at home? Because your opinion doesn’t agree with the law? Because the officer exercised his right? The same right you and I are able to exercise if found in a dangerous situation.

Would you feel so strongly if the individual would’ve had a criminal record? Or if he was well known to police as a threat? Or if the neighbors saw him beat his woman all the time? Just because that wasn’t the case doesn’t mean it wasn’t a possibility.


Real abuse happens everyday and no one cares, why? Because you don’t see it on the news? Because you think a certain description deserves it? Because it’s not worth your time? Because in your opinion they are a criminal even though no crime has taken place? Because you think they are guilty? See how things you perceive bad alter your thoughts and blind you to anything else.

This case is far from abuse or anything other then proper protocol, you have lived a very sheltered life, or, just chosen to look the other way if this qualifies as abuse.


Thanks to body cameras a lot of truly dirty cops have been caught and dealt with. They have had to answer for their actions because they finally did something, caught on camera, to someone who could speak and others would believe or listen to. How many people were done dirty before that 1 person and nobody cared?


Officers are people, I give them the respect they give me. I have the right to carry a firearm, I also respect the fact they have no idea who I am or what I’m going to do.

When pulled over, I roll my window down and keep both hands on the wheel. As soon as the officer approaches, I say “hello sir, I just want to let you know I have firearms in the vehicle”. Not only can I see him instantly relax, I rarely ever get a ticket and am told I’m not who they are worried about, the ones hiding it is who they are concerned with.

What I don’t do is show him a gun as soon as he walks up, or start digging through shit simply because I can. That is not smart, even though I have the right to do that, I mean I am in my vehicle right?

If someone breaks into your house you have the right to defend it. After you have defended it, I would assume you would call the police to report the burglary and shooting. Even though it’s your right, would you greet the officer with the pistol in your hand? I personally wouldn’t, why? It’s not smart to call in a crime and then approach the responder even slightly resembling a threat. There could be consequences.

Once again, there is a big difference between someone seeing flashing blue lights behind them and pulling over to the side of the road, and drawing their weapon as a response to a police officer approaching the vehicle, and someone coming to the front door with a gun in hand because of an unknown person at the door.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Once again, there is a big difference between someone seeing flashing blue lights behind them and pulling over to the side of the road, and drawing their weapon as a response to a police officer approaching the vehicle, and someone coming to the front door with a gun in hand because of an unknown person at the door.

It wasn't an unknown person.
The perspective that matters is the one who used deadly force. I have been over this endlessly with you yet you are stuck as you often are on other topics in your own little fantasy world.

Stop perpetrating red-herrings.

The officer, after knocking and announcing has ever right to reasonably believe the person answering the door knows who he is.

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[Havok1]

It wasn't an unknown person.
The perspective that matters is the one who used deadly force. I have been over this endlessly with you yet you are stuck as you often are on other topics in your own little fantasy world.

Stop perpetrating red-herrings.

The officer, after knocking and announcing has ever right to reasonably believe the person answering the door knows who he is.

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That’s the opinion of a guy who benefits if a police officer isn’t held accountable for doing shitty work. The gf who was on the phone said the victim asked who was at the door, so yes, it was an unknown person.

anybody who don’t consider the perspective of the innocent person just going about his life inside his apartment has no business in this field.

 

[glenbo]

Here's a short article that shows some of what cops are subjected to:

Homicidal Empathy: An Evolving Threat to Police Officers - Force Science

Even where officers successfully respond to deadly threats, there remains a segment of our population standing ready to indict, convict, and imprison them.

www.forcescience.com

 

[cycleguy2300]

That’s the opinion of a guy who benefits if a police officer isn’t held accountable for doing shitty work. The gf who was on the phone said the victim asked who was at the door, so yes, it was an unknown person.

anybody who don’t consider the perspective of the innocent person just going about his life inside his apartment has no business in this field.

No, that's the expert opinion of someone who has actually been schooled on law and regularly has continuing-ed in the subject.

I'd wager nearly anything she only said that after consulting an attorney, I dont believe it for a second, BUT EVEN IF TRUE it doesn't fucking matter. If the deputy didn't have access to Information, he couldn't reasonably expected to know it.

Whatever the man was doing before he opened the door with a gun in hand simply does not matter unless the officer could reasonably be expected to know the information and last ai checked they weren't all three on a party line AND the officer heard the man verbally acknowledge there were police at his door.

Think of the clown pranks that have gone wrong, where the target beats the shit out of someone causing havok and trying scare people. Sometimes they even get a gun pulled on them or shot. Its justified because A REASONABLE PERSON having a masked person rush upon you would could REASONABLY BELIEVE the "clown" was hoing to rob, rape, assault or kill them, whether or not that was ACTUALLY the case.

It isn't because the prankster did necessarily did anything "illegal", but that the target REASONABLY BELIEVED they were doing something illegal or placing them in immediate harm.

Neither you, nor I as citizens, need to wait to be harmed if it is reasonable to believe harm is imminent. The only real special treatment LEO's get is extra scrutiny (justified) and higher standards of expectations (also justified).

Just as it would be pointless to try to teach algebra to someone who has not yet mastered simple addition, it is pointless to spend the effort on arguing with you (though half my brain is tied behind my back, just to make it fair). Its like playing checkers with pigeons trying to teach you, so I write, as I do so often to ensure a clown does not lead those actually interested in learning astray. Each of your points has been endless shown to be wrong with case law which explicitly lays out the principles of police seizure (use of force) and this shooting, how ever unfortunate the circumstances falls with the reasonableness standard which is fair for all

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[cycleguy2300]

Here's a short article that shows some of what cops are subjected to:

Homicidal Empathy: An Evolving Threat to Police Officers - Force Science

Even where officers successfully respond to deadly threats, there remains a segment of our population standing ready to indict, convict, and imprison them.

www.forcescience.com

The DUI call they describe in the artice sounds a lot like a FUBAR "ASSIST MOTORIST" call we did a case study on in our ICAT (integrated communication and tactics) class. It sadly was a case study on how not to do a LOT of things.

Iirc the vehicle had been immobilized, (no innocents in danger = no PUSH), is a knife a reasonable/immediate threat to officers OUTSIDE of a vehilce? (No)

Killing of Christian Glass - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

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[Tblack89]

Once again, there is a big difference between someone seeing flashing blue lights behind them and pulling over to the side of the road, and drawing their weapon as a response to a police officer approaching the vehicle, and someone coming to the front door with a gun in hand because of an unknown person at the door.

There’s a big difference between someone drawing their weapon when an officer is approaching their vehicle but not when an officer is approaching their home? The same vehicle that is an extension of the home?

I didn’t see the lights or hear the officer screaming at me to pull over? I was scared someone was trying to steal my car, I just drive to my destination and step out of my vehicle with my pistol in my hand.

I should be good right?

 

[Tblack89]

Sure, we disagree on a number of topics, I think a rebuttal would be redundant.

I try to insert a little humor in my posts, at least it's funny to me and often folks won't get my warped humor.

I'm absolutely nothing like you described, maybe we'll meet sometime and have a beer or better, a nice single malt, and dispel some of the misperceptions.

Sounds good sir, I look forward to it.