Ukraine invasion

[General Zod]

And finally...

Biden’s Posturing On Polish Migs Further Undermines Credibility| @amacforamerica

The VP left his credibility in tatters when he said that Poland's fallen soldiers were being buried in Russia.

amac.us

 

[Renegade]

The ONE difference in capabilities is the twin engines.

OK twin engine is only difference between an F-15 and F-16.

Gotcha.

 

[Renegade]

U.S. in talks with Poland on deal to send fighter jets to Ukraine

After speaking via Zoom to Ukraine’s president, U.S. lawmakers from both parties urged the White House to help Kyiv obtain fighter jets from its Eastern European neighbors.

www.nbcnews.com

"Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Sunday confirmed that the discussions"

Discussions are not offers.

"we are looking at how we might be able to backfill should Poland decide to . . . supply those planes,” Blinken said

"might be able" not an offer.

Notice who is not quoted? The only guy with legal authority to make an offer.

 

[General Zod]

OK twin engine is only difference between an F-15 and F-16.

Gotcha.

Oh Jesus Christ. Stop. That's not what I said.

It's the fundamental difference between an F-16 and a MiG-29. You know damn well that's what I was saying. I didn't even mention F-15s in that sentence.

Reading comprehension. Do you have any?

 

[Younggun]

Ok, Rus been shooting cruise missiles from surface ships, ground launchers and aircraft for a while. From Rus side, and off shore. Previously it was barrage rockets, like but bigger and better than our in WWII. Now we find out (?) their rockets have added chaff/ECM and flare to avoid anti-missile defenses. So our 'Iron Dome' is behind the curve? Where has Raytheon been? Supposedly a small radar sensor that does the release. Avoids our Arm/Harm stuff. Same as their choppers from the vids I've seen, Ukr fires AA missiles and choppers release flare and chaff.

Flares on Russian helicopters are nothing new. It’s a pretty basic and boring defensive measure that doesn’t get talked about much, but not an advanced defensive system. Hinds we’re getting their asses kicked by Stingers we have to afghans in the 70s and the Russians adapted. Flares are no guarantee either.

I’d be surprised to see actual electronic counter measures on a cruise missile, likely very short range and unable to prevent an initial lock. It typically takes a dedicated aircraft to handle that role. Chaff and flare may or may not be effective, especially if the missile isn’t taking evasive maneuvers to avoid the strike.

HARMs are for hitting active radar, not cruise missiles.

Not telling what our real missile defense systems are capable of. Probably either substantially better or worse than anything the gov might admit. If you tell someone your true capabilities they will know exactly how to defeat them.


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[Renegade]

It's the fundamental difference between an F-16 and a MiG-29. You know damn well that's what I was saying. I didn't even mention F-15s in that sentence.

Yes it is "the fundamental difference" to a 12 year old assembling a toy model of each.

Not to anyone who understands capabilities.

But sure, you are right and every nation that bought F-15s instead of F-16s is wrong.

 

[Renegade]

I’d be surprised to see actual electronic counter measures on a cruise missile,

I think the source for that is this:

Russia’s Use Of Iskander Ballistic Missiles In Ukraine Exposes Secret Decoy Capability

The novel decoy, ejected from the base of the missile, is designed to confuse hostile radar and interceptor missiles.

www.thedrive.com

 

[General Zod]

No.

The MiG-29 is a direct competitor to the F-16. It's not an Su-27/30. The ONE difference in capabilities is the twin engines.

Quoted again for Renegade's benefit, since he can't seem to comprehend full sentences

OK twin engine is only difference between an F-15 and F-16.

Gotcha.

Such reading skills. Wow. Such a leftist tactic, replying to half of a statement so you can twist it around.

 

[General Zod]

Yes it is "the fundamental difference" to a 12 year old assembling a toy model of each.

Not to anyone who understands capabilities.

But sure, you are right and every nation that bought F-15s instead of F-16s is wrong.

You've proven you understand nothing about the subject matter, so there's that.

The Poles bought F-16s. They're buying F-35s. They've never mentioned F-15s. You're pulling this stuff out of your ass. The MiG-29 is intended to fulfill the same missions as the F-16 and F-18. It's not an air superiority fighter, it's a multirole fighter with fairly short range. You seem to think it's analogous to an F-15 because it's got twin engines and twin tails. It's not. It's a lightweight multirole fighter just like an F-16 or an F-18. It even has crappy range like an F-18.

 

[General Zod]

Yes it is "the fundamental difference" to a 12 year old assembling a toy model of each.

Not to anyone who understands capabilities.

But sure, you are right and every nation that bought F-15s instead of F-16s is wrong.

"Every nation that bought F-15s instead of F-16s" isn't wrong. You are. You do not undestand the capabilities of the MiG-29 or how it compares to the Western fighters it was intended to counter.

Mikoyan MiG-29 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

By 1971, however, Soviet studies determined the need for different types of fighters. The PFI program was supplemented with the Perspektivnyy Lyogkiy Frontovoy Istrebitel (LPFI, or "Advanced Lightweight Tactical Fighter") program; the Soviet fighter force was planned to be approximately 33% PFI and 67% LPFI. PFI and LPFI paralleled the USAF's decision that created the "Lightweight Fighter" program and the General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon and Northrop YF-17.

Mikoyan MiG-29 (Fulcrum) Lightweight Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the Mikoyan MiG-29 (Fulcrum) Lightweight Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

"However, in a turn of events on January 19th, 1976, Soviet authorities opte to develop a heavier dedicated fighter to match the F-15 directly and classified the MiG-29 as a "lightweight" fighter design meant to counter the reach of the F-16 directly."

Mikoyan MiG-29 Multi-Role Fighter | Military-Today.com

Mikoyan MiG-29, known in the West as the Fulcrum, is a multi-role fighter. It re-established the Soviet Union's reputation as a producer of capable combat aircraft. The MiG-29 was developed to meet a Soviet air forces requirement for a lightweight multi-role fighter.

www.military-today.com

"The MiG-29 was developed to meet a Soviet Air Force requirement for a lightweight multi-role fighter. It was a Soviet response to the American F-16 multi-role fighter."

Mikoyan MiG-29 Multi-Role Fighter | Military-Today.com

Mikoyan MiG-29, known in the West as the Fulcrum, is a multi-role fighter. It re-established the Soviet Union's reputation as a producer of capable combat aircraft. The MiG-29 was developed to meet a Soviet air forces requirement for a lightweight multi-role fighter.

www.military-today.com

"With only a 6 Missile Armament, and only 2 out of 4 being Radar Guided, the Fulcrum was seen as a close in F-16 like dogfighter while the Flanker with its armament of up to 12 missiles was the long range heavily armed flying SAM site designed to be the Soviet Analogue to the F-15."


OK, Renegade. Now YOU back up your assertions that the Mig-29 is analogous to the F-15. I've offered documentation in a previous reply, and now I'm offering it again. Put up or shut up.

 

[Renegade]

OK, Renegade. Now YOU back up your assertions that the Mig-29 is analogous to the F-15.

Never said that.

I said Poland asked for something comparable in capabilities. F-15C is closest in capabilities to the Polish planes (f-15C is still superior). I made this statement based on experience working on F-15/16 at Langley AFB/LaRC, and having examined physically numerous Mig-29s and talked to their pilots.

I admit, this actual experience is no match for your google search experience.

You win.

And they are still not getting F-16s. :-)

 

[General Zod]

Never said that.

Liar.

Correct, but F-16 is not comparable. Mig29 is twin engine air superiority fighter, that means F-15 or F-22. F-22 is off the table, so that leaves F-15C.

 

[Renegade]

Does Ukraine have the training and experience to fly and maintain these different models of aircraft?

The Polish planes are original models with limited capabilities (some upgrades). So they are sort of hybrids. Not sure how well they would perform though. If they were top of the line Poland would not be offering them. Not sure how many are actually 100% ready. Probably very few if any.

 

[Renegade]

Liar.

Post 1409:

They asked for "corresponding operation capabilities"

Renegade said: Correct, but F-16 is not comparable. Mig29 is twin engine air superiority fighter, that means F-15 or F-22. F-22 is off the table, so that leaves F-15C.

Yes I wrote that. Nowhere does it say "Mig-29 is analogous to the F-15"

F-15 is superior. We spanked the shit out of Mig-29 in Desert Storm.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Ive heard that Russia is holding their best forces in case of direct conflict with NATO. Putin did say no conscripts are involved with the operation and I have seen videos of Airborne and Spetnasz troops

Could be bs but who knows for sure.

That jives with what S2 Underground was saying before the shooting started, that most of the conscripts had been moves out. S2'S reasoning was it would be worse for PR if a bunch of folks who were forced to be there were killed. Who knows though...

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[General Zod]

Once again the "expert" is making shit up.

The Polish planes are original models with limited capabilities (some upgrades). So they are sort of hybrids. Not sure how well they would perform though. If they were top of the line Poland would not be offering them. Not sure how many are actually 100% ready. Probably very few if any.

First Polish Avionics-Modernized MiG-29 makes maiden flight

On Mar. 15 the first Polish MiG-29 to have undergone avionics upgrade in the Military Aviation Service Facility no. 2 (Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze nr 2) in

theaviationist.com

Poland's MiG-29s underwent a modernization program to raise them to NATO standards. Mostly avionics upgrades from analog instruments to digital, plus other flight systems.

 

[General Zod]

Post 1409:

They asked for "corresponding operation capabilities"




Yes I wrote that. Nowhere does it say "Mig-29 is analogous to the F-15"

F-15 is superior. We spanked the shit out of Mig-29 in Desert Storm.

Move those goalposts, pal. Watch 'em go. Nothing you said is what you said. Got it.

 

[Brains]

 

[Renegade]

Once again the "expert" is making shit up.

The Polish planes are original models with limited capabilities (some upgrades).

 

[oldag]

bs.

we never offered anything. As I pointed out from a Press release from Poland Mod, they did all the offering.

At one point, a US official (SedDef?) was encouraging Poland to do so. Then Poland called his bluff. Went up the US chain where Biden killed it. Editorial in the WSJ described this.