Ukraine invasion

[toddnjoyce]

Poland keeps trying to give them to us in order to pass them to Ukraine. As the US government spent two weeks badgering them to do. They've offered repeatedly to fly them to Rammstein and turn them over.

Q: why doesn’t Poland just give them directly to Ukraine? The US does not need to be a middle man.

 

[General Zod]

Q: why doesn’t Poland just give them directly to Ukraine? The US does not need to be a middle man.

Maybe because it's us that was badgering them to do so, so the Poles wanted the US government to either put up or shut up? The US was trying to set up this exchange, which put us in the middle in the first place. Then when it became a real possibility, the backtracking started.

We even offered to replace them one-for-one with F-16s (which Poland already flies, so it would be a pretty good deal), but when the Poles said "Fine, here you go" suddenly it became "far too provocative" to hand them over.

 

[Renegade]

Poland keeps trying to give them to us in order to pass them to Ukraine. As the US government spent two weeks badgering them to do. They've offered repeatedly to fly them to Rammstein and turn them over.

In exchange for F-15/22 we do not have to give them.

Nobody is stopping them from skipping the middle man and giving them by themselves.

 

[Younggun]

In exchange for F-15/22 we do not have to give them.

Nobody is stopping them from skipping the middle man and giving them by themselves.

Admittedly I don’t know much about this situation and am learning from what y’all are posting, but I thought they were asking for F-16s comparable to the Mig-29s they were going to give/trade.


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[Renegade]

Admittedly I don’t know much about this situation and am learning from what y’all are posting, but I thought they were asking for F-16s comparable to the Mig-29s they were going to give/trade.


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Correct, but F-16 is not comparable. Mig29 is twin engine air superiority fighter, that means F-15 or F-22. F-22 is off the table, so that leaves F-15C.

 

[General Zod]

Correct, but F-16 is not comparable. Mig29 is twin engine air superiority fighter, that means F-15 or F-22. F-22 is off the table, so that leaves F-15C.

F-16s are, in fact, compatible...with the F-16s the Polish Air Force currently flies. The F-16 is capable as an air superiority fighter - it's one of the roles it fullfills as a "multi-role" fighter. F-16s are a more maneuverable dogfighter, fire the same weapons as F-15s, and in the verson Poland flies they have just about the same range due to the conformal fuel tanks Polish F-16s are equipped with. They're also capable as fighter/bombers, which isn't a capability the F-15C has but is an extremely valuable capability for a European air force to have.

The Poles have not asked for and do not want F-15s. Nor were they offered any to replace their MiGs. They were offered more F-16s, and have indicated that they'd even be willing to accept 'gently used' F-16C's from USAF surplus.

If this is the level of your expertise, it suddenly makes sense why "just give the megalomaniac what he wants" is your solution to the current situation.

 

[oldag]

I think everyone should take a step back and really ask yourself that if every politician, media talking head and corporation in this country wants you to support something, maybe there is more to the picture. Im not saying Russia / Putin are good, but the last time everyone in this country was told to be 'united' we lost two wars, added trillions of dollars in national debt and saw our civil liberties get raped.

Im not in a rush to get into a war and watch my children die so a bunch of pedophiles can push mandatory gay sex education for Ukrainian children.

I do my own analysis, perform my own critical thinking and draw my own conclusions. And in these cases, a good knowledge of world history is valuable.

 

[oldag]

Q: why doesn’t Poland just give them directly to Ukraine? The US does not need to be a middle man.

Poland wants NATO to give them (not the U.S.). They want to do this to discourage Russian retribution.

 

[Renegade]

F-16s are, in fact, compatible...

No.

They asked for "corresponding operation capabilities" Only two planes in our inventory meet that requirement and F-16 is not a twin engine, air superiority fighter. Not even close.


It is all moot, they knew they were not getting anything, it is all public posturing.

 

[popper]

Ok, Rus been shooting cruise missiles from surface ships, ground launchers and aircraft for a while. From Rus side, and off shore. Previously it was barrage rockets, like but bigger and better than our in WWII. Now we find out (?) their rockets have added chaff/ECM and flare to avoid anti-missile defenses. So our 'Iron Dome' is behind the curve? Where has Raytheon been? Supposedly a small radar sensor that does the release. Avoids our Arm/Harm stuff. Same as their choppers from the vids I've seen, Ukr fires AA missiles and choppers release flare and chaff.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

I'm astonished at the level of TGT's military experts - Perhaps, color commentary on war for Fox is next...?

PS, my snark is not directed at any one individual as I appreciate all are shitting little green squealing worms of anxiety.

Perhaps going outside and smelling and enjoying Spring (it's here) would help with all your troubles and woes...

 

[toddnjoyce]

Maybe because it's us that was badgering them to do so, so the Poles wanted the US government to either put up or shut up? The US was trying to set up this exchange, which put us in the middle in the first place. Then when it became a real possibility, the backtracking started.

We even offered to replace them one-for-one with F-16s (which Poland already flies, so it would be a pretty good deal), but when the Poles said "Fine, here you go" suddenly it became "far too provocative" to hand them over.

Why do you keep insisting the US was pushing the deal?

The U.S. State Department's No. 3 diplomat said the Polish proposal caught the United States by surprise.

"To my knowledge, it wasn't pre-consulted with us that they planned to give these planes to us," State Department Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland told a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing.

U.S. rejects Poland's offer to give it Russian-made fighter jets for Ukraine

The United States rejected a surprise offer by NATO ally Poland on Tuesday to transfer its Russian-made MiG-29 fighter jets to a U.S. base in Germany as a way to replenish Ukraine's air force in its defense against invading Russian forces.

www.reuters.com

 

[Renegade]

We even offered to replace them one-for-one with F-16s (which Poland already flies, so it would be a pretty good deal), but when the Poles said "Fine, here you go" suddenly it became "far too provocative" to hand them over.

bs.

we never offered anything. As I pointed out from a Press release from Poland Mod, they did all the offering.

 

[General Zod]

No.

They asked for "corresponding operation capabilities" Only two planes in our inventory meet that requirement and F-16 is not a twin engine, air superiority fighter. Not even close.

No.

The MiG-29 is a direct competitor to the F-16. It's not an Su-27/30. The ONE difference in capabilities is the twin engines.

Also, I'll say this agian - Poland is already an operator of F-16s. They're poised to take posession of F-35s. They have no reason to want a third frontline fighter type. They never asked for F-15s.

Also, the MiG-29 is not an air-superiority fighter. It is a short range multirole fighter. Even the guys who sell MiG-29 flights know this:

MiG-29 Fulcrum: interceptors and multi-purpose combat aircraft | MiGFlug.com

The MiG-29 is a living legend and backbone of many air forces. Make your dream come true and fly the aerodynamically unique Jet Fighter MiG-29.

migflug.com

"The MiG-29 Fulcrum is a modern 4th generation supersonic fighter that can achieve more than double the speed of sound. The aircraft is comparable with the American Boeing F/A-18 Hornet or the General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon."

 

[Tnhawk]

F-16s are, in fact, compatible...with the F-16s the Polish Air Force currently flies. The F-16 is capable as an air superiority fighter - it's one of the roles it fullfills as a "multi-role" fighter. F-16s are a more maneuverable dogfighter, fire the same weapons as F-15s, and in the verson Poland flies they have just about the same range due to the conformal fuel tanks Polish F-16s are equipped with. They're also capable as fighter/bombers, which isn't a capability the F-15C has but is an extremely valuable capability for a European air force to have.

The Poles have not asked for and do not want F-15s. Nor were they offered any to replace their MiGs. They were offered more F-16s, and have indicated that they'd even be willing to accept 'gently used' F-16C's from USAF surplus.

If this is the level of your expertise, it suddenly makes sense why "just give the megalomaniac what he wants" is your solution to the current situation.

Does Ukraine have the training and experience to fly and maintain these different models of aircraft?

 

[General Zod]

Why do you keep insisting the US was pushing the deal?

The U.S. State Department's No. 3 diplomat said the Polish proposal caught the United States by surprise.

"To my knowledge, it wasn't pre-consulted with us that they planned to give these planes to us," State Department Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland told a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing.

U.S. rejects Poland's offer to give it Russian-made fighter jets for Ukraine

The United States rejected a surprise offer by NATO ally Poland on Tuesday to transfer its Russian-made MiG-29 fighter jets to a U.S. base in Germany as a way to replenish Ukraine's air force in its defense against invading Russian forces.

www.reuters.com

"The Biden administration is holding talks with Poland about a possible deal to help provide Soviet-era fighter jets to Ukraine, a White House spokesperson said.

The deal would involve Poland donating its old Russian-made MiG fighters to Ukraine, and then replacing them with the purchase of U.S.-made F-16 jets.


“We are working with the Poles on this issue and consulting with the rest of our NATO allies,” a White House spokesperson said."

U.S. in talks with Poland on deal to send fighter jets to Ukraine

After speaking via Zoom to Ukraine’s president, U.S. lawmakers from both parties urged the White House to help Kyiv obtain fighter jets from its Eastern European neighbors.

www.nbcnews.com

They were "surprised" because the Poles changed their minds and said "Ok, we're in."

 

[General Zod]

Does Ukraine have the training and experience to fly and maintain these different models of aircraft?

No, nor have they been offered any of these aircraft. They've been asking for MiG-29s. Re-read - it's Poland that is offering MiGs and wanting a good deal on replacements from the US to supplement the F-16s they already fly.

 

[General Zod]

bs.

we never offered anything. As I pointed out from a Press release from Poland Mod, they did all the offering.

U.S. in talks with Poland on deal to send fighter jets to Ukraine

After speaking via Zoom to Ukraine’s president, U.S. lawmakers from both parties urged the White House to help Kyiv obtain fighter jets from its Eastern European neighbors.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[General Zod]

Biden’s Baffling MiG-29 Reversal | National Review

The Biden administration’s position flipped from supporting a transfer of Polish MiG-29 fighter jets to the Ukrainians to opposing and blocking the move.

www.nationalreview.com

 

[General Zod]

US secretary of state confirms plans to supply Ukraine with fighter jets from Poland

Antony Blinken also says the US is documenting instances of attacks on civilians.

www.politico.eu