Ukraine invasion

[Sasquatch]

...because appeasement always works so well.

As opposed to a shooting war with a nuclear power that reportly has double the number of nuclear weapons we do? They've already stated that NATO interference will be met with nuclear retaliation.

 

[toddnjoyce]

… The main ask seems to be for a no-fly zone. Any guesses as to where this is heading?

To a dead end. Enforcing a No Fly Zone requires destroying any violators. Ukraine isn’t a NATO member, so NATO doesn’t have an obligation and any unilateral decisions by a member to do that op for Ukraine would be viewed as an offensive step to war which jeopardizes NATO.

Now if the Swiss wanted to get involved and do it out of the goodness of their neutral heart, that’s a whole different story.

 

[candcallen]

Just an observation but I'm not so sure putin is any sort of real conventional weapon threat to any nato country much less nato as a whole. From the trouble we have seen them have in Ukraine I think taking on nato would be over quickly. Like desert storm quickly if nato went all in. Were not talking soviet era size forces here.

That's just an observation. Its madness to court war with someone in such an obvious position with a no fly zone, besides you dont need it if you give Ukraine the weapons needed to counter the air threat. You, with a no fly zone, would force him into a action to either get take out by his own people when they realized he was gonna go full or tact nuke strike in a coup, watch while his military was humiliated and destroyed cause he attacked a nato country or chose tactical nuke use to try and force a settlement.

Neither choice is is something I would gamble on unless he forced our hands.

Just give Ukraine the weapons to destroy him. It wont be that hard. Proxy wars never really stopped. Stop dragging you feet and give them the planes. Be done with this.

 

[candcallen]

As opposed to a shooting war with a nuclear power that reportly has double the number of nuclear weapons we do? They've already stated that NATO interference will be met with nuclear retaliation.

Past a certain point the number of nukes is a moot point.

 

[Sasquatch]

Past a certain point the number of nukes is a moot point.

Yes, but it when a nation stockpiles that many weapons, it signals that they may well be pushed into using them at some point - unless they built them just to line the pockets of the contractors making them (a possibility) - we scaled back on our nuclear arsenal while other nations have been building up theirs. I'll take Putin's threat at face value, because underestimating him or thinking he's bluffing could well bite us in the ass.

@toddnjoyce I think said that if Russian subs make a move to launch they'd be blown out of the water before they get a shot off - I would hope that's true but if even one or two make it to launch depth and fire their missiles the results would be very, very bad. If they launch missiles from mainland Russia I'd hope our missile defenses are up to snuff, but what if they just decide to make an incursion into US air space over Alaska and use gravity bombs, or air-launched cruise missiles to take out Elmendorf? I'd not like to see that happen.

The more we back Putin into a corner, the more likely I think he is to make good on his threats.

 

[toddnjoyce]

… let them have Ukraine….

Not ours to give away.

 

[Sasquatch]

Not ours to give away.

No, its not. But we don't need to step in and prevent Russia from taking it by getting into a direct war with them either. Let the CIA do what they seem to do best - smuggle shit in and prop up insurrectionists.

 

[General Zod]

As opposed to a shooting war with a nuclear power that reportly has double the number of nuclear weapons we do? They've already stated that NATO interference will be met with nuclear retaliation.

Putin is so terrified of the 'Rona he sits everyone he meets with at the opposite end of a thirty foot table. He's obsessed with longevity and his own health. And he understands that a nuclear war will mean his own death. He's cold and calculating, but he doesn't seem to be the "go out in a blaze of glory" type of megalomaniac. He's much more the "if I can't have it, then I'll make sure it's of no use to anyone ever again" type, as exemplified by his army's conduct in Ukraine since things went off the rails with the invasion - targeting everything without regard to whether it's a military or civilian target.

Not to mention that the Russian nuclear arsenal has been neglected since the 90s - there's no guarantee things would even work properly if the order was given. Nuclear warheads and the missiles they're attached to require periodic maintenance, and the Russian military is demonstrating how little their equipment has been maintained right now. And speaking of the order being given, it would have to go through layers of command and control, each made up of Russian officers who may or may not be on board with this whole cult of personality. Russian officers defying orders averted nuclear war in 1962 (Vasili Aleksandrovich Arkhipov) and in 1983 (Stanislav Yevgrafovich Petrov).

If we cower now because of fear of what he might do, then we'll always cower and appease. And befoe long, Putin will decide to start testing whether NATO will actually defend Eastern European member countries like Slovenia or Poland.

 

[candcallen]

Some Yahoo in the Russian parliament just demanded reparations for the sanctions and cost of the war. The dissolution of NATO, as well as returning Alaska and parts of Calif.

Lol.

Alaska governor said phuck you well fight.

I'm thinking we can settle by giving them California since they are a bunch of commie bastards anyway. Lollollolol

 

[oldag]

They've already stated that NATO interference will be met with nuclear retaliation.

And if you believe Russia would launch a nuke, I have prime farmland five miles south of Galveston to sell you.

 

[General Zod]

As opposed to a shooting war with a nuclear power that reportly has double the number of nuclear weapons we do? They've already stated that NATO interference will be met with nuclear retaliation.

And BTW, I'm not saying we should go in guns-a-blazing. Or even set up a no-fly zone necessarily - though we (NATO) need to start issuing ultimatums of our own instead of always being the ones put on notice by Putin. One thing we (the US) do need to do is give Ukraine the goddamn MiG-29s we badgered Poland into giving away, then chickend out on delivering.

 

[MTA]

Ive heard that Russia is holding their best forces in case of direct conflict with NATO. Putin did say no conscripts are involved with the operation and I have seen videos of Airborne and Spetnasz troops

Could be bs but who knows for sure.

 

[Younggun]

Ive heard that Russia is holding their best forces in case of direct conflict with NATO. Putin did say no conscripts are involved with the operation and I have seen videos of Airborne and Spetnasz troops

Could be bs but who knows for sure.

I think this is correct. But I think they’re being held to combat the possibility of UN troops on Russian soil. I don’t think he would send them in to Ukraine, but keep them closer to home as a perimeter against an invading force.


Despite my support for direct intervention with Ukraine, I don’t support troops going in to Russia.


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[General Zod]

Putin did say no conscripts are involved with the operation

Putin also says only military targets are being attacked. And that it isn't an invasion.

 

[MTA]

Putin also says only military targets are being attacked. And that it isn't an invasion.

Just reporting what I am seeing on Telegram.

I have videos saved to my phone of Ukrainian missiles decimating civilians in Donetsk. Are you outraged about that too?

 

[MTA]

I think everyone should take a step back and really ask yourself that if every politician, media talking head and corporation in this country wants you to support something, maybe there is more to the picture. Im not saying Russia / Putin are good, but the last time everyone in this country was told to be 'united' we lost two wars, added trillions of dollars in national debt and saw our civil liberties get raped.

Im not in a rush to get into a war and watch my children die so a bunch of pedophiles can push mandatory gay sex education for Ukrainian children.

 

[Younggun]

I don’t base my decisions on what the corporations think.


Hell, I even watch podcasts by people that think we should stay out of it for their point of view. I just still haven’t seen anyone that can tell me how ducking our heads now will prevent a bigger issue in the future. Like not answering the phone when a bill collector calls. Might avoid dealing with it temporarily, but then they shut the lights off and you have a much higher cost to pay.


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[General Zod]

Just reporting what I am seeing on Telegram.

I have videos saved to my phone of Ukrainian missiles decimating civilians in Donetsk. Are you outraged about that too?

Yep. But the situation in Dontesk was ALSO started by the Russians, on Putin's orders in 2014, through a "local militia" equipped and trained by Russian "advisors". While Obama issued hollow, weak protests and then pretended nothing was amiss. All this shit goes straight back to Russian expansionism while Democrats are in office here. Because we project weakness when there's a Democrat president, and Putin exploits that weakness.

Know what happened while Trump was in office? After a chemical attack in Syria, a Syrian airbase was attacked with US Tomahawk cruise missiles, killing Syrians and their Russian advisors. Did that escalate into a nuclear war? Later, a couple of dozen US troops were pinned down in an oil terminal in Syria, with several hundred Syrian troops and their Russian "mercenary" support (Wagner Group, a supposedly civilian "contractor" firm that is equipped and trained by the Kremlin, but ostensibly under the control of one of Putin's cronies) attacking. After air strikes were called in, over 200 Russians and several hundred Syrians were dead in the desert. And there was no nuclear war. Because you have to give a bully a bloody nose sometimes, and Putin couldn't predict what Trump might do if provoked.

 

[Renegade]

One thing we (the US) do need to do is give Ukraine the goddamn MiG-29s we badgered Poland into giving away, then chickend out on delivering.

We do not have any combat ready Mig29s to give.

Any guesses as to where this is heading?

Where we said it was heading, 100 pages ago. The complete rubbling of Ukraine, and we are just about there. Zelenskyy has erred at every fork in the decision tree. Does not help he inherited a giant mess, but he did not improve anything. Maybe they should elect Jerry Seinfeld and see if he does better.

Any attempts to arm Ukraine only makes it worse. It is cruel. But at least Raytheon/Lockheed/etc get to see what works and what does not work missile systems that have not seen significant use.

 

[General Zod]

We do not have any combat ready Mig29s to give.

Poland keeps trying to give them to us in order to pass them to Ukraine. As the US government spent two weeks badgering them to do. They've offered repeatedly to fly them to Rammstein and turn them over.