Ukraine invasion

[gll]

Understand.

But we could do a heck of a lot to help Ukraine without setting one foot on the ground. We have standoff weapons that could blunt the assault and perhaps allow Ukraine to hold their own.

Would be one thing if we had sent those weapons to Ukraine before there was a declaration of war, but now? Just how much can any country at war allow another power to act on behalf of it's enemy before including that other power in their war?

Yeah, you can argue that Putin started this, and if it escalates it's on him, but is it really? Or, is it on Obama/Biden who got their filthy hands into Ukraine? Do you really want to fight a war for the Biden crime family's interests?

I really wish the Ukrainian people the best, but I'm not sure about their government; it would be nice if the two could be separated... Also, I'm not sure Putin is the only bad guy in this. If sanctions are war by other means, Obama/Biden started a war with Russia years ago and extended that war into Ukraine.

I really don't know enough of what's really going on over there, but I know I don't trust my own government much more than Putin... When I'm not really sure of the right course of action, I'm inclined not to act at all, at least not until something happens that directly impacts me... I'm still inclined to think this war should fall on the Europeans, except that we already have Ukrainian dirt all over us because of Bush/Obama/Biden crime families.

 

[Renegade]

Do you really want to fight a war for the Biden crime family's interests?

Reading the game board, it seems Biden got all his money out of Ukraine, thus his complete lack of interest.

Hillary Clinton has not, hence her push for an all-out cyber war.

 

[oldag]

I diss the concept that dying doing something stupid advances the cause. Wandering onto a highway where you can get run over is stupid. It advances nothing. Telling a Russian commander to go **** himself is a great Clint Eastwood line, but 13 dead and no casualties on the enemy does not win wars. The guy who blew himself up taking out a bridge, yeah that was brave and made a difference. Ukraine is greatly outnumbered, they cannot afford to lose fighters needlessly.

Yeah, I have more skills than he does. So do most of the people on this forum. Would any of you wander on a highway of speeding trucks? Of course NOT. Instead you may sit at an overpass or on side of road and snipe shots at passing soldiers or do a DC sniper strategy. Or be a sabatour, that is a very important role right now. Nobody here would do stupid shit to get yourselves killed. if you have no fighting skills, you could learn First Aid skills and help in a hospital. Or he could learn to load mags or fix AKs. Or just be a good witness and report troop movements is probably a great role needed right now. There are lots of roles for civilians to play in a war effort.

Doing SOMETHING stupid is not bravery, it is just stupid. If every Ukraine civilian took out just one enemy soldier before dying, they would win in a route. But dying with ZERO casualties inflicted helps Russia, not Ukraine.

So what would you have had the 13 soldiers stranded on the island do? Surrender? Wooo - that would have taught those Russians a thing or two. Build concrete bunkers with imaginary equipment and materials? Guess they could have made a quick trip to Home Depot and Sunbelt rental. You say they had time to prepare. Tell me, when were those soldiers placed on that island? You don't know and neither do I. Yet you assume the worst.

You make a lot of assumptions about what the man could have done. You do not know if any of those actions were practical/possible for him.

Even if he had an option, that does not diminish his bravery. Nor that of the 13 soldiers.

I am done with you on this topic.

 

[oldag]

Would be one thing if we had sent those weapons to Ukraine before there was a declaration of war, but now? Just how much can any country at war allow another power to act on behalf of it's enemy before including that other power in their war?

Yeah, you can argue that Putin started this, and if it escalates it's on him, but is it really? Or, is it on Obama/Biden who got their filthy hands into Ukraine? Do you really want to fight a war for the Biden crime family's interests?

I really wish the Ukrainian people the best, but I'm not sure about their government; it would be nice if the two could be separated... Also, I'm not sure Putin is the only bad guy in this. If sanctions are war by other means, Obama/Biden started a war with Russia years ago and extended that war into Ukraine.

I really don't know enough of what's really going on over there, but I know I don't trust my own government much more than Putin... When I'm not really sure of the right course of action, I'm inclined not to act at all, at least not until something happens that directly impacts me... I'm still inclined to think this war should fall on the Europeans, except that we already have Ukrainian dirt all over us because of Bush/Obama/Biden crime families.

Russia does not want to take on the US directly. Yet.

 

[Renegade]

So what would you have had the 13 soldiers stranded on the island do?

Follow their orders would have been what I would expect them to do. Pretty sure "go **** yourself" and then staying in the Danger Close area was not what they were ordered to do. Streaming it live probably wasnt either.

You make a lot of assumptions about what the man could have done. You do not know if any of those actions were practical/possible for him.

And you do not know they werent practical/possible. They are not assumptions, they are options.

Even if he had an option, that does not diminish his bravery.

Stupid is not bravery.

 

[gll]

Russia does not want to take on the US directly. Yet.

Agreed, but I think we could easily force him. Maybe we should... I don't know... There's probably going to be a world war sooner or later anyway. Maybe sooner is better...

If Texas declared independence, I'd die for her if the U.S. tried to take her back, so I can understand Ukrainians fighting Russian invaders, but as a Texan, I don't think I'd fight for Ukraine if I had a choice.

 

[Sam7sf]

I diss the concept that dying doing something stupid advances the cause. Wandering onto a highway where you can get run over is stupid. It advances nothing. Telling a Russian commander to go **** himself is a great Clint Eastwood line, but 13 dead and no casualties on the enemy does not win wars. The guy who blew himself up taking out a bridge, yeah that was brave and made a difference. Ukraine is greatly outnumbered, they cannot afford to lose fighters needlessly.

Yeah, I have more skills than he does. So do most of the people on this forum. Would any of you wander on a highway of speeding trucks? Of course NOT. Instead you may sit at an overpass or on side of road and snipe shots at passing soldiers or do a DC sniper strategy. Or be a sabatour, that is a very important role right now. Nobody here would do stupid shit to get yourselves killed. if you have no fighting skills, you could learn First Aid skills and help in a hospital. Or he could learn to load mags or fix AKs. Or just be a good witness and report troop movements is probably a great role needed right now. There are lots of roles for civilians to play in a war effort.

Doing SOMETHING stupid is not bravery, it is just stupid. If every Ukraine civilian took out just one enemy soldier before dying, they would win in a route. But dying with ZERO casualties inflicted helps Russia, not Ukraine.

Don’t consider my reply as argumentative. It’s a cold hard question.

Wouldn’t you consider the act on snake island to benefit in psychological warfare? I get what you’re saying but sometimes sacrifices awaken people and they fight harder. I think they are fighting really hard and I do respect the risk they made going out like that. I don’t think they needed others commentary as to note the risk. They knew it.

I think all of Ukraine knows they can’t win but they are going down swinging and I love it. I love those people.

 

[gll]

Stupid is not bravery.

Yeah it is, sorta, it's just not very smart to risk your life for lesser gain...

I agree with you that even a life for a life would be worth the sacrifice, but the guy on the highway had no hope of that...

I do still think the risk he took, combined with the video posted to youtube and it's viewing by millions, might potentally inspire many other acts of resistance, including the kinds you support...,

but, we here nearly universally condemned the same kind of act by BLM and Antifa... Seems a lot depends on which side you are on, or if you are even taking sides...

 

[Renegade]

Don’t consider my reply as argumentative. It’s a cold hard question.

Wouldn’t you consider the act on snake island to benefit in psychological warfare? I get what you’re saying but sometimes sacrifices awaken people and they fight harder. I think they are fighting really hard and I do respect the risk they made going out like that. I don’t think they needed others commentary as to note the risk. They knew it.

I think all of Ukraine knows they can’t win but they are going down swinging and I love it. I love those people.

I do not see how getting needlessly slaughtered while inflicting ZERO casualties aids in psychological warfare. That is demoralizing. They are greatly outnumbered and cannot afford any needless losses.

Fortunately these are isolated incidents, the overwhelming majority of fighters will inflict enemy losses before dying (or at least try). If they dont, Russia wins.

 

[MTA]

Russia does not want to take on the US directly. Yet.

I agree with this.

Give it another decade or two and the west will just keep degenerating into oblivion. We have so many cultural problems in the west to name just a few: plummeting birth rates, unending social unrest, rise of LGBT sodomy being normalized/pushed on to our children and every single government entity and corporation waging a war on your average white American/European. Its taken 20 years for this country to really become unrecognizable with the most damage done from 2012 until the present. What does the next 20 years look like?

Dont get me wrong, this whole war going on is a shit situation but the coming decades are going to be much worse imo for Europeans and Americans. Hope to God I am wrong for the sake of my children, born and unborn.

 

[Renegade]

I agree with this.

Exactly. You beat the US by letting the US beat itself.

 

[gll]

I do not see how getting needlessly slaughtered while inflicting ZERO casualties aids in psychological warfare. That is demoralizing. They are greatly outnumbered and cannot afford any needless losses.

Fortunately these are isolated incidents, the overwhelming majority of fighters will inflict enemy losses before dying (or at least try). If they dont, Russia wins.

Martyrs do tend to inspire... Our own revolution has a few examples.

However, victories, even small ones like "The Ghost of Kyiv", inspire even more.

There may not have ever been a Lexington, without there first being a Boston Masacre, but we were more inspired by the Boston Tea Party.

 

[popper]

I doubt snake island had any real guns on it and rifles don't have an effect on a navy ship. Would have been neat if they had has a shore battery and sank the Rus ship. Surrender - go to prisoner of war camp? Wasn't there but the ship I left went to nam. Idiot in sampan with a 40mm attacked and was vaporized by 5". Stupid does as stupid is.

 

[DaBull]

I diss the concept that dying doing something stupid advances the cause. Wandering onto a highway where you can get run over is stupid. ...

Doing SOMETHING stupid is not bravery, it is just stupid. If every Ukraine civilian took out just one enemy soldier before dying, they would win in a route. But dying with ZERO casualties inflicted helps Russia, not Ukraine.

What separates a national war from a family fued, is will. If you don't believe that then look at how our wars ended in Vietnam and Afghanistan. It IS stupid to give your life for no reason, but this brave Ukrainian died (perhaps) for a reason...to weaken the will of the enemy and strengthen the will of his countrymen. This will come in handy when the populace armed with AKs and molotovs must confront Russians backed with armor and air support. The video is powerful, and why it is viral.

BTW, the Tienanmen Square tank obstruction video is not available in China. Not because it shows a stupid man so there is little entertainment value, but because it could rekindle a movement.

 

[Renegade]

Martyrs do tend to inspire... Our own revolution has a few examples.

However, victories, even small ones like "The Ghost of Kyiv", inspire even more.

There may not have ever been a Lexington, without there first being a Boston Masacre, but we were more inspired by the Boston Tea Party.

I am hard pressed to find a single instance in US/TX history where all fighters were killed without even an attempt to engage the enemy.

 

[Almin]

Another point, ukr used to have a facility to produce the biggest johnsons, so they used the knowledge elsewhere
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/world/asia/north-korea-missiles-ukraine-factory.html

Funny thing is russian johnson got a NATO name Satan, but US counterparty is Peacekeeper :-)

 

[cycleguy2300]

Follow their orders would have been what I would expect them to do. Pretty sure "go **** yourself" and then staying in the Danger Close area was not what they were ordered to do. Streaming it live probably wasnt either.



And you do not know they werent practical/possible. They are not assumptions, they are options.


Stupid is not bravery.

I totally get what you are saying, but I say the "Russian warship: Go **** yourself" was in-line with "Nuts" or Col. Wm. B. Travis' cannon shot when Santa Anna demanded their surrender.

The 13 on Snake Island only had a few options:
-surrender and end their war.

-Dig in and try to survive and fight if assaulted, then die.

-Tell Russia to **** itself and inspire others to be willing to fight and not to fear death.

I tend to think the were dug in. Understand Snake Island was a SF training facility. I'm just a dumb cop and even I know to dig in. I'm sure the island was completely hammered.

If those 13, whose war was essentially already over, inspire 13 others to bravery then I think they made a good call. I think they were fucking bad-asses for that response.

Likewise I see an unarmed man standing in front of a tank as something that could rally public opinion against Russia. Look at Rhodesia, they were fighting a good fight against commies, but some of the methods didnt look good or were twisted or what ever and world wide politics couldn't really afford to get behind their war because of looks. Remove the weapons and claim the terrs were civilian...

It is a matter of opinion, but I think it was great and it put Russia in a no win position. Stop and an unarmed civilian stopped a war machine. Don't stop and now Russians are driving over unarmed civilians "oh the horror".

Looks/perception matters when a single image can become the one that a war is remembered by.



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[Renegade]

I totally get what you are saying, but I say the "Russian warship: Go **** yourself" was in-line with "Nuts" or Col. Wm. B. Travis' cannon shot when Santa Anna demanded their surrender.

They all had a PLAN to FIGHT back, and executed that plan. They inflicted casualties.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Martyrs do tend to inspire... Our own revolution has a few examples.

However, victories, even small ones like "The Ghost of Kyiv", inspire even more.

There may not have ever been a Lexington, without there first being a Boston Masacre, but we were more inspired by the Boston Tea Party.

The "Boston Massacre" is another great example of how image matters.

Let me ask:
BLM is cornering a group of police and throwing big ass rocks and closing in. The cops use deadly force and fire a volley at several of the people engaged innthe rock throwing. Were the cops wrong?

Now let's say a group of redcoats are cornered by some riotous colonists throwing big ass rocks and the soldiers fire a volley into the far from innocent crowd killing several. Were the soldiers wrong? No, John Adams even defended the soldiers in court.

The soldiers were put into a no win situation and the revolutionary print media of the time successfully won the fight to name it as a massacre, which helped fuel public opinion against England.

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[Renegade]

If those 13, whose war was essentially already over, inspire 13 others to bravery then I think they made a good call. I think they were fucking bad-asses for that response.

Likewise I see an unarmed man standing in front of a tank as something that could rally public opinion against Russia.

We will disgree.

I think needless slaughters are demoralizing.

On the other hand, unselfish bravery that completes a tactical objective (like dying to blow up a bridge and slow advance), motivates.