Why you can't give permission to carry a handgun on your property

[West Texas]

Exactly, and it clearly states one of the things you cannot do, is carry a handgun on your person, unless you meet one of the specific exceptions. And having permission of the property owner is not one of them. So he can give you permission to carry and you can avoid a PC30.05 trespassing charge, but not the UCW charge unless there is a specific Case Law for it.

Can a property owner give me permission to carry drugs on his property? No. Carry child porn? No. There are an infinite number of examples of things a property owner can not give you permission to do. Carrying a handgun is one of them.

The best way to understand Texas handgun law is this. In 1871 they banned carry of handguns. No exceptions. None. Over time folks got arrested and appealed their convictions. Some won, some lost. The wins became know as judicially carved exceptions. Some became common and were codified in law. Others not.

Here is one of the best reads ever on Texas gun laws:

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/law_review_articles/texas.PDF

Is a gun illeagal for a person to carry on property they own or that they control? YES. The INVITATION to be on that private property legally gives control and consent from the owner to the person invited.

Permission CAN be granted, and IS granted every day all acorss the state.

Your mention of child porn and drugs is laughable...we are talking about something that a person CAN LEGALLY HAVE on PROPERTY THEY CONTROL, OR HAVE BEEN GIVEN CONTROL OVER.

To say that I, as a property owner CAN NOT GIVE CONTROL over to another for them to enjoy an activity that would be legal on property that they own, control, or have been granted by invitation control over, is worng. If this were the case, then there would be no way for real property to be loaned or leased.

 

[Bithabus]

Is a gun illeagal for a person to carry on property they own or that they control? YES. The INVITATION to be on that private property legally gives control and consent from the owner to the person invited.

Does every person you invite on your property have control over your property? In my case the answer is NO.

I understand this is how you feel it should be (and I agree with you 100%), but without statutory or case law on the books to back it up our feelings mean nothing.

 

[Renegade]

A property owner cannot authorize someone to do something that State Law specifically says is illegal.

 

[smschulz]

Interesting debate.
Renegade you see this as pretty much black and white but I am not so sure.
I wouldn't want to be the test case but I think there are some legit arguments both ways.
If the post by West Texas is true (I believe it is) then it would seem to validate the 'greyness' of this issue.
It needs to be clarified but whether it ever will remains to be seen.
Nice discussion.

 

[Renegade]

Most Texas Gun Law is B&W, since there is so much Case Law behind it for the last 135+ years. I have not see any change as a result of Case Law in my time living here. Much research has been done, I cited the Halbrook article, but the Texas Legislature undertook a massive project in the late 80s early 90s when we were trying to get CHL passed. That is when I first became aware of this issue. There are also many books from Briggs, etc.

Only the newer stuff like CHL, Castle Law, etc., has little history.

Like said, it sucked a whole lot worse in 1994.

 

[MR Redneck]

Most Texas Gun Law is B&W, since there is so much Case Law behind it for the last 135+ years. I have not see any change as a result of Case Law in my time living here. Much research has been done, I cited the Halbrook article, but the Texas Legislature undertook a massive project in the late 80s early 90s when we were trying to get CHL passed. That is when I first became aware of this issue. There are also many books from Briggs, etc.

Only the newer stuff like CHL, Castle Law, etc., has little history.

Like said, it sucked a whole lot worse in 1994.

CHL was signed in 1995, it went into effect in Janurary of 1996.
Dont mention Ann Richards, you'll get me all pissed off!!

 

[chubbyzook]

to make the event a sporting one it could be considered a bbq cookoff with only one team lol

 

[Wolfwood]

IF a person is INVITED on to a persons property, and they were know to be openly in possesion of a side arm at the time the invitation to come on to the property was made, there is NO violation the spirit or intent of the law.

that is diffrent than the Letter of the law.

but i get ya, man.

to me the idiotic part is that this law is even on the books.

these are outdated worthless and whats more, dangerous laws.

 

[Wolfwood]

Drugs and porn are both illegal anywhere!.

so why at every gas station is there a rack of "herbal energy" pills and "Advil" packets right next to the Juggs and Hustler?

lets talk reality....



---edit----

almost forgot.

Ann Richards!

 

[jsimmons]

So, the solution is to put up targets and call it a shoot, even though no shooting will actually be done? Hell, if that's the case, I'll have a shoot at my house next weekend. I live behind Sea World in San Antonio. I can invite my district representative and Gov "I will but only if you will first" Perry.

 

[West Texas]

A property owner cannot authorize someone to do something that State Law specifically says is illegal.

State law DOESN'T say it is illegal to open carry on property you control. You're missing the point that the district judges and DA pointed out, but I guess I've not made clear enough to you...this is a PROPERTY LAW issue, not a GUN LAW issue.

The Law can not, and DOES NOT tell me WHO I can grant control of property I own and control to for their use for any LEGAL purpose...and since it is LEGAL to open carry ON PROPERTY YOU OWN OR CONTROL, IF CONTROL HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME BY WAY OF AN INVITATION TO BE ON SOMEONES PROPERTY WITH THE SPECIFIC STATEMENT OF "PLEASE FEEL FREE TO OPEN CARRY", THERE IS NO VIOLATION OF THE GUN LAWS, AND FOR LEO TO TRY TO MAKE IT A VIOLATION THEY WOULD FIRST HAVE TO VIOLATE PROPERTY LAWS AND THE RIGHTS OF PROPERTY OWNERS TO ALLOW ACCESS TO AND FREE USE OF PROPERTY THEY LEGALLY OWN AND CONTROL TO ANYONE ELSE FOR ANY ACTIVITY THAT WOLD BE LEGAL ON PROPERTY THEY THEY OWN OR CONTROL, RATHER BY VERBAL OR WRITEN AGREEMENT OR INVITATION.

There is NO restriction in property laws, or the rights of property owners, to use property they own or control for ANY legal activity, OR TO ASSIGN USEAGE/CONTROL TO ANYONE THEY SO CHOICE FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME THEY SO CHOICE FOR ANY LEGAL ACTIVITY THEY SO CHOOSE.

Your aurgument isn't with me by the way...it's with the law, which you have completely misinterupted.

 

[smschulz]

I have a tendancy to side with West Texas.

On another note: You could just have an AR/AK BBQ ~ "slings required".

 

[Renegade]

State law DOESN'T say it is illegal to open carry on property you control. You're missing the point that the district judges and DA pointed out, but I guess I've not made clear enough to you...this is a PROPERTY LAW issue, not a GUN LAW issue.

Agreed on that, but the point you are missing is a GUEST is not in control of the premises. The actual property owner is. I go to Best Buy, which is private property, I am a guest, I am not in control of the premises. I can't decide to kick everyone off the property, something a person in control of the premises can do. I go to some guy's Halloween Party, Christmas Party, etc., I am not in control of the premises. I have no authority on the property, because I am a GUEST.

A guy on the Internet, inviting people whose names he does not even know, is not giving the control of his premises to them just because he offers them some BBQ. You behave badly and he kicks you off the property, because HE is in control of the premises NOT you the GUEST.

Never mind the silliness of even suggesting he is given control of his premises to 50+ people he does not even know.

UPS, FEDEX, USPS, even the Police, etc are all folks who are INVITED to come to my property on occasion, but NONE are in control of the premises, even though they are INVITED (and one time the UPS man even got some free BBQ!).

It is a Gun Law Issue as it is derived from Penal Code Chapter 46 WEAPONS, NOT Chapter 30 Criminal Trespass. If find it hard to believe a judge and a DA do not know the difference between Chapter 30 and Chapter 46.

So at this point it seems the issue is whether an unknown GUEST on premises is in control of said premises.

Easily solved by having your judge & DA cite Case Law showing this.

 

[TexasRedneck]

You miss the issue, Renegade - by giving permission for someone to enter while openly carrying a sidearm, the land owner is well within their rights - and those availing themselves of it are legally carrying. You don't have to believe me on this, it's your perogative.

 

[Renegade]

You miss the issue, Renegade - by giving permission for someone to enter while openly carrying a sidearm, the land owner is well within their rights - and those availing themselves of it are legally carrying

I am not missing anything, this is a very old issue that has been known for decades and is still not fixed. We can't fix this you really think we can get open carry everywhere? No chance. We finally fixed "traveling" after 125 years now we need to fix this. The only thing new is all the people unaware of it.

It is really this simple:

It is ILLEGAL to open carry a handgun (certain exceptions):

A property owner cannot give permission to someone to do something that State Law specifically says is illegal.

His "permission" only extends to no violation of Criminal Trespass. He has no legal authority to authorize UCW where State Law says UCW is illegal.

 

[TexasRedneck]

Ummm....so, Renegade - you're saying that I cannot open carry on my own property?

 

[Renegade]

Ummm....so, Renegade - you're saying that I cannot open carry on my own property?

Oh Cmon, this was covered in the first post. Here is one of the exceptions:

(1) on the person ’s own premises or premises under the person ’s control; or

And for the RECORD, I AM NOT SAYING ANYTHING. I AM QUOTING THE LAW. I wish someone would quote law or case law to the contrary, but nobody has done that yet. They have merely offered their opinion which does not mean anything legally.

 

[TexasRedneck]

So...I can then give a guest "control", which would allow him to carry. Nothing states that it's a restricted or limited "permission".

 

[West Texas]

You miss the issue, Renegade - by giving permission for someone to enter while openly carrying a sidearm, the land owner is well within their rights - and those availing themselves of it are legally carrying. You don't have to believe me on this, it's your perogative.

He doesn't.

I am not missing anything, this is a very old issue that has been known for decades and is still not fixed. We can't fix this you really think we can get open carry everywhere? No chance. We finally fixed "traveling" after 125 years now we need to fix this. The only thing new is all the people unaware of it.

It is really this simple:

It is ILLEGAL to open carry a handgun (certain exceptions):

A property owner cannot give permission to someone to do something that State Law specifically says is illegal.

His "permission" only extends to no violation of Criminal Trespass. He has no legal authority to authorize UCW where State Law says UCW is illegal.

Just had lunch with one of the judges who is laughing about this thread, and who will probably go home and join just to comment....if he does, I excecpt he'll be banned for what he will have to say about it!

Just for grins, let me try this ONE MORE TIME.

So, if a person is leasing a piece or property on a hand shake between friends, then he or she couldn't carry openly carry on that property to, say, work around the garden? According to what Renegade is saying he or she would be guilty of a crime for doing so, even though he has been given the right by the property owner to enjoy, use and control that property.

Or maybe the agreement is the use of a piece of river front property for a BBQ for a family reunion...

The owner of the property is giving control over to the person, and the person then has the right to carry openly if he so chooses as the state allows a person to open carry on property they own or control.

The state CAN NOT tell a person what rights of usages they can and can not extend to guests or persons who lease properties from them. If it is legal for the land owner, it is legal for the person that the land owner gives over control and usage rights. It's that simple.

 

[Renegade]

So...I can then give a guest "control", which would allow him to carry. Nothing states that it's a restricted or limited "permission".

Pretty much yes.

When I have a friend over for a shoot & BBQ, he is not in control of the property, I am.

When I go on vacation and ask the same friend to feed the livestock, look out for the property and give him the keys, so he may stay there and come and go, then he is in control of the property while I am gone.

In either situation I have no control over UCW, that is determined by State Law.