Why you can't give permission to carry a handgun on your property

[Renegade]

Well I did not mean to cause a stir in the BBQ thread. I usually only post this around Thanksgiving as it pertains to illegal knives, but since the ban on illegal knives and handguns is the same section, it applies. It is real simple. Texas generally bans the carrying of handguns via PC46.02:

Sec. 46.02.UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.A (a)A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

There it is. Pretty much been this way since 1871 one way or another. Now lets look at what the NOT exceptions are:

(1) on the person ’s own premises or premises under the person ’s control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person ’s control.
(a-1) in a car...
(a-2) in a rv...

(1) A guest on your property isn't on his own premsies and he is certainly not in control of yours, you are. A leasee would meet it, your brother staying at your house while you are on vacation would meet it, but strangers showing up for a party, no way, especially with the actual property owner present.

(2) requires you be directly enroute to a motor vehicle, so standing around doing whatever on someone else proprty does not qualify either. SIDE NOTE this also brings up another stupid part of the law, it only allows for carrying TO the motor vehicle, NOT FROM the motor vehicle (but that is another thread).

(a-1) is about being in a car, so we can ignore that too.

(a-2) is about being in a rv, so we can ignore that too.

So there is no relief there. The only other major place is PC46.15. It is a large section, so I am not going to quote it all, but in general it exempts Law Enforcement Officials of various titles and the like so they can carry. It also exempts CHLs, but they would have to keep the handgun concealed, they cannot open carry, if they do it is a Class A Misdemeanor under PC46.035.

It also exempts:

(2)is traveling;
(3)is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor ’s residence or motor vehicle, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;

(2) well you are obviously not traveling if you have reached your destination. So while it was legal to Open Carry while traveling to the destination, once you arrive it is not.

(3) This is the big one. This is why you can open carry at gun ranges, gun shows, etc. This is what Bithabus was getting at when he said "setup some targets". If you turn the event into a shoot, it qualifies under (3), just a BBQ, then it does not qualify.

So there you have it. There is no provision in the law for a property owner to allow folks to carry handguns on his property. He can ban them, but he cannot allow them.

Now what does this have to do with Thanksgiving? Well PC46.02 bans illegal knives as well as handguns. And a typical knife used to carve a Turkey is > 5.5 inches, so it is an illegal knife. Carving dinner is not a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity, so there is no relief there like you get with handguns. Thus if a guest possesses an illegal knife, they have committed a Class A Misdemeanor. A CHL is GTG though, if they have their handgun and License with them.

That is how whacky some of these laws are. I hope some of you are not wrapped so tight you think I advocate enforcing this or anyone getting arrested for this, but I am sure someone is. The sad part is, I know many folks who have been falsely arrested for PC46.02, this is one where it would NOT be a false arrest. So be careful out there.

Anyway, there you have it. Have fun with it just like I do.

 

[MR Redneck]

Nice post renegade.
I guess the old phrase, " Dont Kill The Messenger" applies here.
Your post are always a good read even if I dont like then. My dislike is for the content, and thats not your fault.
This post just goes to show that Texas Legislature aint doing thier job. True, we have been burdened with laws that date back to post civil war reconstruction. I dont sse why those same laws are still in effect. I dont want any slaves and I dont really think anyone else does either.
The fact that Texans are burdened with laws that we dont want is the reason we are all on this forum. Hell, its the reason im doing some of the things that I have been working on.
This BBQ we speek of, well thats just another way were " Protesting" the laws we hate.
None of this is your fault. Actually im thankful for people like you and bithabus. You'r constant posting and debating teaches me a lot. I dont disagree with your post, I simply disagree with the content. The content is not your, it simply burdens you as it does everyone else.
Dont stop because your contributing to something in more ways than you realize.
Its a sad day when a man having a open carry BBQ has to consider getting thrown in jail. I guess i'll just be thrown in there with him because I respect his property and his desire more than I respect laws that a gaggle of numbnuts created.
I simply believe that laws are suppose to punish criminals and make things better for the honest community.
Bring you a target, and lets eat BBQ. You never had briskit till you've had mine..

 

[jake75]

Everyone going, bring a hunting license. People hunt with handguns and they cant tell you what you can and cant hunt with be it rifle or pistol. Thats just stupid.

 

[Renegade]

Keep in mind we did not even have CHL until 1995!!!

And the Motorist Protection Act was only the last few sessions.

So prior to 1995, carrying handguns was pretty much banned everywhere.

We have made progress but there is still much more to do.

I mean seriously, How F'ing stupid is it when you can't let grandpa ( a guest for Thanksgiving), carve the Turkey?

 

[MR Redneck]

Keep in mind we did not even have CHL until 1995!!!

And the Motorist Protection Act was only the last few sessions.

So prior to 1995, carrying handguns was pretty much banned everywhere.

We have made progress but there is still much more to do.

I mean seriously, How F'ing stupid is it when you can't let grandpa ( a guest for Thanksgiving), carve the Turkey?

Dont forget about the state telling grandma and grandpa they have to buy their right to carry a gun for self defense.
I can go on and on all day, but you get the idea and I really need to put a Deere engine back together.
I'll leave yall with this, The LSCDL site will be running the first part of next week.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

Sec. 46.02.UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.A (a)A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:


.

That is the kind of garbage law that needs to be changed. Why in the WORLD would no one not have fought this b.s. law in the past 100+ years ?

Now "I" can carry on MY property, but my family, friends or anyone that "I" give permission to can't open carry ?

Who says that Arizona doesn't have better gun laws ! Geez !

 

[West Texas]

Well I did not mean to cause a stir in the BBQ thread. I usually only post this around Thanksgiving as it pertains to illegal knives, but since the ban on illegal knives and handguns is the same section, it applies. It is real simple. Texas generally bans the carrying of handguns via PC46.02:

Sec. 46.02.UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.A (a)A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

There it is. Pretty much been this way since 1871 one way or another. Now lets look at what the NOT exceptions are:

(1) on the person ’s own premises or premises under the person ’s control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person ’s control.
(a-1) in a car...
(a-2) in a rv...

(1) A guest on your property isn't on his own premsies and he is certainly not in control of yours, you are. A leasee would meet it, your brother staying at your house while you are on vacation would meet it, but strangers showing up for a party, no way, especially with the actual property owner present.

(2) requires you be directly enroute to a motor vehicle, so standing around doing whatever on someone else proprty does not qualify either. SIDE NOTE this also brings up another stupid part of the law, it only allows for carrying TO the motor vehicle, NOT FROM the motor vehicle (but that is another thread).

(a-1) is about being in a car, so we can ignore that too.

(a-2) is about being in a rv, so we can ignore that too.

So there is no relief there. The only other major place is PC46.15. It is a large section, so I am not going to quote it all, but in general it exempts Law Enforcement Officials of various titles and the like so they can carry. It also exempts CHLs, but they would have to keep the handgun concealed, they cannot open carry, if they do it is a Class A Misdemeanor under PC46.035.

It also exempts:

(2)is traveling;
(3)is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor ’s residence or motor vehicle, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;

(2) well you are obviously not traveling if you have reached your destination. So while it was legal to Open Carry while traveling to the destination, once you arrive it is not.

(3) This is the big one. This is why you can open carry at gun ranges, gun shows, etc. This is what Bithabus was getting at when he said "setup some targets". If you turn the event into a shoot, it qualifies under (3), just a BBQ, then it does not qualify.

So there you have it. There is no provision in the law for a property owner to allow folks to carry handguns on his property. He can ban them, but he cannot allow them.

Now what does this have to do with Thanksgiving? Well PC46.02 bans illegal knives as well as handguns. And a typical knife used to carve a Turkey is > 5.5 inches, so it is an illegal knife. Carving dinner is not a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity, so there is no relief there like you get with handguns. Thus if a guest possesses an illegal knife, they have committed a Class A Misdemeanor. A CHL is GTG though, if they have their handgun and License with them.

That is how whacky some of these laws are. I hope some of you are not wrapped so tight you think I advocate enforcing this or anyone getting arrested for this, but I am sure someone is. The sad part is, I know many folks who have been falsely arrested for PC46.02, this is one where it would NOT be a false arrest. So be careful out there.

Anyway, there you have it. Have fun with it just like I do.

I ran your post by two district judges, a Texas Ranger and a district attorney, all good friends of mine...and to put it bluntly, all called bullshit.

IF a person is INVITED on to a persons property, and they were know to be openly in possesion of a side arm at the time the invitation to come on to the property was made, there is NO violation the spirit or intent of the law. If the owner asked them to leave or to put the weapon away, and if the guest refused to do so and the owner then called the police, THEN there would be a violation of the law.

And unless there was some other reason for LEO to show up at a private function, held on private property, LEO isn't going to just go door to door looking over fenses for someone that is wearing a sidearm.

 

[cuate]

I think a previous post hit the nail on the head, "reconstruction" following our surrender and the northern get even laws..High time to nullify every damn one of them in one manner or the other ! Our forefathers whipped Mexico's --- and we came close to whipping the Federals at times. It wasn't slavery, it was for States Rights as very few of the common CSA soldiers at the time could afford "bought" labor, they did it themselves.

 

[Renegade]

I knew someone would be along soon enough.

 

[Bithabus]

I ran your post by two district judges, a Texas Ranger and a district attorney, all good friends of mine...and to put it bluntly, all called bullshit.

IF a person is INVITED on to a persons property, and they were know to be openly in possesion of a side arm at the time the invitation to come on to the property was made, there is NO violation the spirit or intent of the law. If the owner asked them to leave or to put the weapon away, and if the guest refused to do so and the owner then called the police, THEN there would be a violation of the law.

And unless there was some other reason for LEO to show up at a private function, held on private property, LEO isn't going to just go door to door looking over fenses for someone that is wearing a sidearm.

Interesting. Could you ask your Judge and DA friends which case law they are relying on to support this position? Sometimes case law can be hard to find unless it is pointed out. Thanks.

 

[TexasRedneck]

The defense to the charges is right here:

(3)is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor ’s residence or motor vehicle, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;

"Other sporting activity".....define that, please. I don't consider golf a sport - others do. I DO consider a gathering of gun enthusiasts a sporting activity - and the law is vague enough that no DA in their right mind is gonna "bust" an event like that.

 

[Renegade]

"Other sporting activity".....define that, please.

Like "traveling", a lot of it is defined in Case Law when someone got busted and claimed N/A. I and the person who first brought this to my attention many year ago are unaware of any Case Law stating a BBQ being a sporting event. I would love to see it though, it would be nice if ALL the N/A from Case Law was assembled in one place.

 

[TexasRedneck]

Beyond which, if the owner of a property gives permission for someone to carry on their property, no law is being broken....

 

[Bithabus]

I would love to see it though, it would be nice if ALL the N/A from Case Law was assembled in one place.

+ one million.

Beyond which, if the owner of a property gives permission for someone to carry on their property, no law is being broken....

Not according to the Penal code. If you know of relevant case law please post it here.

A bunch of guys standing around eating brisket is not a "sporting event", by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[West Texas]

An interesting comment that one of the Judges I showed this to made, after reading the statute for himself, was that laws don't tell you what you CAN do, but what you CAN'T. He went on to say that No where in the statute does it say that a person can not extend control over property they own or control and have a right to carry a weapon on to friends and/or family, allowing them to carry as well. He went on to say that to interpret this any other way would be to restrict a persons right to control his own property and the use of that property, and that any time you invite someone in to your home, or on to your property, you are, in fact, allowing them some measure of implied control and use of that property.

 

[Renegade]

An interesting comment that one of the Judges I showed this to made, after reading the statute for himself, was that laws don't tell you what you CAN do, but what you CAN'T.

Exactly, and it clearly states one of the things you cannot do, is carry a handgun on your person, unless you meet one of the specific exceptions. And having permission of the property owner is not one of them. So he can give you permission to carry and you can avoid a PC30.05 trespassing charge, but not the UCW charge unless there is a specific Case Law for it.

Can a property owner give me permission to carry drugs on his property? No. Carry child porn? No. There are an infinite number of examples of things a property owner can not give you permission to do. Carrying a handgun is one of them.

The best way to understand Texas handgun law is this. In 1871 they banned carry of handguns. No exceptions. None. Over time folks got arrested and appealed their convictions. Some won, some lost. The wins became know as judicially carved exceptions. Some became common and were codified in law. Others not.

Here is one of the best reads ever on Texas gun laws:

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/law_review_articles/texas.PDF

 

[MR Redneck]

Exactly, and it clearly states one of the things you cannot do, is carry a handgun on your person, unless you meet one of the specific exceptions. And having permission of the property owner is not one of them. So he can give you permission to carry and you can avoid a PC30.05 trespassing charge, but not the UCW charge unless there is a specific Case Law for it.

Can a property owner give me permission to carry drugs on his property? No. Carry child porn? No. There are an infinite number of examples of things a property owner can not give you permission to do. Carrying a handgun is one of them.

The best way to understand Texas handgun law is this. In 1871 they banned carry of handguns. No exceptions. None. Over time folks got arrested and appealed their convictions. Some won, some lost. The wins became know as judicially carved exceptions. Some became common and were codified in law. Others not.

Here is one of the best reads ever on Texas gun laws:

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/law_review_articles/texas.PDF

Drugs and porn are both illegal anywhere! Guns are legal and we have as much right to have them as anything else. This aint 1871. Im tired of a bunch of Restrictions that were enforced on Texas due to post civil war reconstruction.
Texas legislature hasnt done a very good job of keeping good laws that work for the people of Texas. This crap has gone on long enough!
I feel silly because nothing has been done about any of this crap untill me and a few others on this site decided to make a run of it.
Like I said before, keep posting this mess because your helping more than you know.

 

[Renegade]

Drugs are illegal, gun are not.

We are talking about the carrying of handguns, not the ownership of them.

The carrying of handguns is illegal. A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun...

A property owner cannot override State Law.

If it makes you feel any better, I said all these same things too when I first found out about it.

 

[MR Redneck]

We are talking about the carrying of handguns, not the ownership of them.

The carrying of handguns is illegal. A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun...

A property owner cannot override State Law.

If it makes you feel any better, I said all these same things too when I first found out about it.

Im not arguing with ya, im just bitchin about the Laws. Regaurdless of the guns issue, I simply hate anyone telling a man what he can and cant do with his own property. The only thing I think needs to be subjected by the state on private property is environmental issues.

 

[MR Redneck]

Beyond which, if the owner of a property gives permission for someone to carry on their property, no law is being broken....

Howd you sneek back in here? Thats a nice trick, I need to learn that one..