Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick says Senate currently lacks the votes to pass permitless carry

[toddnjoyce]

Well, HB1927 just passed out of the Special Committee 5-1, now heads to the Senate for a vote, woohoo!

Who was the 1, Lucio or Hinojosa?

 

[Wiliamr]

Doing politics in Texas is never easy. It appears that some masterful maneuvering and manipulation has been going on in the arena of Constitutional Carry and perhaps other pro-gun legislation as well. Please, hear me out.

Given the huge number of anti gun, anti-gun ownership facets and groups in Texas as well as the fairly close number of votes for gun rights in the Texas Senate, something had to be done to appease the "antis" and blow smoke up their shorts. How? How about a committee whose job was to appear anti CC as heck, have hearings and yet vote the bill our to the full Senate.

I was constantly intrigued by the anti gun-rights people who kept quoting 81% of Texans against CC and about the same number of "Republicans" against it.
Analyze that. When I was being trained in lobbying, one of the first rules was "make up odd numbers for polls that are set up with ODD numbers" Why? people always question even numbers. Seems there is some solid psychology about how the human mind accepts odd numbers as more real than even numbers.

Perhaps the master minds of politics knew that giving the "antis" their day to protest against CC; allow the personally motivated by personal income and profit (CHL instructors who have a vested interest in maintaining the CHL classes) as well as the religious holy righteous better than us folks to spout and doing what needed to be done despite of them would not only defuse, but defang their arguments and rhetoric.

Maybe I give the LT Governor and the Republican Senate more credit than they are due, but then......

 

[kenboyles72]

Who was the 1, Lucio or Hinojosa?

Hinojosa. But the thing is, Hinojosa was making some good arguments for the bill.

Edit:
Seems both Lucio and Hinojosa voted Nay, Lucio was absent.

 

[Vaquero]

Are we warm and fuzzy? Or cautiously optimistic?
Or just being played again?

 

[kenboyles72]

Are we warm and fuzzy? Or cautiously optimistic?
Or just being played again?

Not sure. I want to be optimistic about this bill, as just about every Republican is in favor of this bill, as well as a few Dems from what I heard. I tell ya one thing, if they let this bill get this far and kill it, there's gonna be a whole lot of pissed off Texans thats gonna still be bitter come the next election.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Are we warm and fuzzy? Or cautiously optimistic?
Or just being played again?

I don’t know; I think there’s a pretty good chance with the six amendments as is, but some alignment with existing laws on the books needs to occur so the LEO unions get placated. I expect to see an amendment for some type of free online gun safety training be made available so the pols can say ‘we heard your biggest complaint about training and answered it.’

 

[Vaquero]

I'm doing my best to be patient and understanding.
BUT
If I hear "training" one more fucking time, I'm through calling and emailing.
I'll be walking through doors and getting some face time.
I broke down and did a "hunter's safety course" a couple of years ago. Just so me and Deemus could go on a week long hunt in Wyoming.
Complete waste of time. The whole course was geared to a 6 year old.

 

[kenboyles72]

Right, those that appose this bill, keep saying that if we get rid of the LTC, then folk won't get training any more. What training? There is no training course for a LTC, there is just a basic safety and proficiency test that just about anyone can pass. I can assure a lot of folk had that info pass from one ear out the other. The thing is, firearm instructors think there are going to be put out of business, that's the only reason they are against it and they have convinced everyone that it's mandatory to take a class if you want to carry. Not all instructors, but a lot of them.

One good thing that did come from those voicing their apposition, due to training issues, is that there is now discussion on having firearm courses back in schools. This I could get behind. I remember in FFA/AG class, we went over firearm safety and shooting and offered the Shooter education course, which was/is required for a hunting license. I think if more people were introduced to firearms, they would have a better understanding and may not have as much fear towards them.

 

[Vaquero]

Right, those that appose this bill, keep saying that if we get rid of the LTC, then folk won't get training any more. What training? There is no training course for a LTC, there is just a basic safety and proficiency test that just about anyone can pass. I can assure a lot of folk had that info pass from one ear out the other. The thing is, firearm instructors think there are going to be put out of business, that's the only reason they are against it and they have convinced everyone that it's mandatory to take a class if you want to carry. Not all instructors, but a lot of them.

One good thing that did come from those voicing their apposition, due to training issues, is that there is now discussion on having firearm courses back in schools. This I could get behind. I remember in FFA/AG class, we went over firearm safety and shooting and offered the Shooter education course, which was/is required for a hunting license. I think if more people were introduced to firearms, they would have a better understanding and may not have as much fear towards them.

Yep.
Firearm safety and proficiency should be standard Jr high curriculum.
I've said that for decades.

 

[Dylan40cal]

 

[Axxe55]

LTC classes are not about training. The "training" for the most part is joke.

I caught a brief snippet on the radio earlier in the afternoon about that. Some LE official was going on about how those with a carry permit had been "vetted" and that LE officers felt safer when dealing with an individual who had a carry permit, as it identified that person as being a good guy, safer when in possession of firearm because they had received training and were qualified to carry a firearm.

What a crock of bullshit!

 

[TheDan]

Abbott looks like he's making moves to set himself up for re-election against the likely candidates Chad Prather and Hollywood Matt.

Don't forgive him for things he shouldn't have done just because he does something we expect him to.

 

[Axxe55]

Don't forgive him for things he shouldn't have done just because he does something we expect him to.

Excellent point. I agree.

 

[seeker_two]

LTC classes are not about training. The "training" for the most part is joke.

I caught a brief snippet on the radio earlier in the afternoon about that. Some LE official was going on about how those with a carry permit had been "vetted" and that LE officers felt safer when dealing with an individual who had a carry permit, as it identified that person as being a good guy, safer when in possession of firearm because they had received training and were qualified to carry a firearm.

What a crock of bullshit!

To be fair, the average shooter that takes the effort to get a LTC and practice likely shoots better than the average LEO in the field, as well as has a lesser chance of committing a felony while armed than a LEO.....so he's not wrong.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

 

[cycleguy2300]

To be fair, the average shooter that takes the effort to get a LTC and practice likely shoots better than the average LEO in the field, as well as has a lesser chance of committing a felony while armed than a LEO.....so he's not wrong.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

"Average shooter that practices" means they are no longer average...

I'd still put my money on the cop who has (in my department's case) been through a 40h pistol course, a 40h rifle course (some of us), quals yearly out to 25y with the pistol with rapid fire from the holster (3rnds in 2sec, from the holster) with mag changes, on top of a couple of 2 or 3 hour shooting or tactical classes a year.

Bottom line, there is a lot more to combat shooting than pulling a trigger and making holes really close to one another and even a dumpy cop gets more training each year than nearly anyone who doesn't shoot at competitions.

The gun owners here on Texas Gun Talk are the cream of the crop as far as knowledge and training go, but I fully support any free citizen's right to own and carry any arms as they see fit and I hope CC passes

Sent from your mom's house using Tapatalk

 

[Axxe55]

To be fair, the average shooter that takes the effort to get a LTC and practice likely shoots better than the average LEO in the field, as well as has a lesser chance of committing a felony while armed than a LEO.....so he's not wrong.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

I'm sorry but I happen to disagree with that.

 

[Axxe55]

I'll also add, that I consider myself way above even the average shooter, simply because of the number of years and number of rounds I have shot over the years. I'm not claiming that I'm the best shooter ever to walk, but I generally hit what I'm aiming at.

Also for the most part, I'm self taught. Vast majority of my "training" was gotten before I was even a teenager. IMO, one of the greatest training tools for becoming a better shooter, is putting rounds downrange. Learning the very basic fundamentals of shooting IMO will probably make a person a better shooter than any high speed, low drag fancy training class ever will. My father instilled the basic fundamentals of shooting when I was a youngster. I expanded on that over the years with doing lots of shooting practice, shooting lots, and lots of rounds.

 

[toddnjoyce]

...Some LE official was going on about how those with a carry permit had been "vetted" and that LE officers felt safer when dealing with an individual who had a carry permit, as it identified that person as being a good guy...

From both invited LE org reps and all three public LE speakers yesterday, that was a common theme. In either this thread or the other one, I mentioned that. Lucio, Hinojosa, and the LE speakers did a real good job painting a picture that the only people LE can feel safe around are those they’ve seen an LTC on. Really disgusted me.

 

[Cob]

I contend he the average LTC holder shoots 200 rds per year or less

 

[toddnjoyce]

Without hard data, it’s really hard to make accurate generalizations about how well trained or proficient anyone is at anything.

What I do know is the only required knowledge components covered in the LTC class are:

1. Laws that relate to weapons and the use of deadly force,
2. Handgun use and safety, including use of restraint holsters and methods to ensure the secure carrying of openly carried handguns,
3. Non-violent dispute resolution,
4. Proper storage practices for handguns with an emphasis on storage practices that eliminate the possibility of accidental injury to a child.

For proficiency, the following must be accomplished once per initial issue of an LTC:

A score of 70%, or 175 points of a possible 250, is required .
The target used is a B-27 which is a human-shaped silhouette target measuring 45 by 24 inches.
All shooting is from the ready position, which means the gun is already in your hands and aimed in.
No holster shooting or shooting from concealed is required.
The B-27 target is 45" high by 24" wide. The inner scoring ring is approximately 18" high by 12" wide and counts 5 points. Shots within the next scoring ring count 4 points, and hits in the outer target zone count 3 points. Shots falling outside of the silhouette outline, green area, do not count.

Course of Fire:

3 yard line - 20 shots:

1 shot in 2 seconds, 5 times
2 shots in 3 seconds, 5 times
5 shots in 10 seconds, once
7 yard line - 20 shots:

5 shots in 10 seconds, once
1 shot in 3 seconds, 5 times
2 shots in 4 seconds, once
3 shots in 6 seconds, once
5 shots in 15 seconds, once

If you shot all 5’s at the 3 and 7 you’d have 200 points before the 15, 25 points more than is needed to pass!

15 yard line - 10 shots:

2 shots in 6 seconds, once
3 shots in 9 seconds, once
5 shots in 15 seconds, once

That’s not much training at all.