Somebody needs prison time
- Thread starter busykngt
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I doubt it, and not in any meaningful way. As @vmax
pointed out, decisions were made a decade+ ago that resulted in the current situation. Meanwhile, the average Joe has just accepted that rolling blackout is okay.
Problem is that our current situation is a baseload infrastructure. That takes a decade or more to solve for. Ain’t nobody got time for that, so I guarantee you’ll keep hearing rolling blackout until 2040 or later.
Interesting that you brought that up.
Maybe go back and look at deregulation of Texas power providers.
IIRC most everyone was all about competition in the market to maintain low rates.
And for clarity, almost all power generators are privately owned and operated (can't think of any that are not, but I guess there maybe a a smattering of them)
Looking at the fiscal responsibility of investing $10K into your home in order to get $10K out of it assuming one never has to maintain the investment ... not sure that is much of a financial reason. Sounds more emotional. Either is fine, but let's not comingle the reasoning.
The financials enabled the infrastructure decision. That same infrastructure investment could have gone towards a pool with a 40% or less ROI and a helluva lot more mx cost, for a seasonal luxury.
But to get back on track, deregulation is a good place to look back at, but that doesn’t absolve .gov for it’s role in delivering a basic public good. In fact, I’d say deregulation actually makes it harder precisely because a free market seeks optimum efficiency which is at odds with maintaining a a baseline capability for hundred year events and then re-examining the assumptions for that baseline every 10 years.
I know if we put in a pool, we don’t have enough supply to keep it liquid for several days of single digit highs. But if I don’t improve my power reserves to account for that increased demand, when the hundred year event occurs, a $40k+ pool investment could become too expensive to repair and that is not only a sunk cost, but an additional cost to either repair or remove. So the financially responsible decision would be to upgrade the genset or not get the pool.
Neither regulators nor politicians think that way.
My point was a 0% ROI is not a sound financial target.
In this case, it seems, an emotional one whereby you have the security to know that your home will always have power, again as long as you maintain it.
Edit:
Unless you mean that a Generator vs Pool ROI, the generator is a better bad decision. I can agree with that.
couldn't find a link to the story, some local official who was blaming everything on ERCOT claimed that the food in people's refrigerator would spoil without power. It's 10* degrees outside ... put the fridge contents in a basket and put it in the garage or porch.
I digress ...
Deregulation completely removed power generation from government oversight. That is black and white. Delivery is still regulated, however.
So the question is ... is there enough power being generated? Or is there not enough infrastructure to deliver it? The claim is that the pipes froze. My pipes haven't froze. So is it really infrastructure? are there frozen limbs laying across power lines? O knuckleheads driving into power poles? Or a combination of the two? we will NEVER know.
I do know most of the infrastructure budget for the last decade has gone to looping all those renewables onto the grid. Syncing them and maintaining sync has been a huge, expensive issue. How is that working out?
And the next question is will Mr. and Mrs. rate payer be willing to foot the bill every month to have power no matter the weather? I doubt it ...
In this case, it seems, an emotional one whereby you have the security to know that your home will always have power, again as long as you maintain it.
Edit:
Unless you mean that a Generator vs Pool ROI, the generator is a better bad decision. I can agree with that.
couldn't find a link to the story, some local official who was blaming everything on ERCOT claimed that the food in people's refrigerator would spoil without power. It's 10* degrees outside ... put the fridge contents in a basket and put it in the garage or porch.
I digress ...
Deregulation completely removed power generation from government oversight. That is black and white. Delivery is still regulated, however.
So the question is ... is there enough power being generated? Or is there not enough infrastructure to deliver it? The claim is that the pipes froze. My pipes haven't froze. So is it really infrastructure? are there frozen limbs laying across power lines? O knuckleheads driving into power poles? Or a combination of the two? we will NEVER know.
I do know most of the infrastructure budget for the last decade has gone to looping all those renewables onto the grid. Syncing them and maintaining sync has been a huge, expensive issue. How is that working out?
And the next question is will Mr. and Mrs. rate payer be willing to foot the bill every month to have power no matter the weather? I doubt it ...
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In the old days electric came from boilers, coal-or-nat'l gas-or-diesel fired. Most TX plants that used nat'l gas no longer have a diesel tank farm backup. They have gone to very efficient gas turbine (jet engine type) power for the generators. No boilers and no diesel backup.
I am surprised that we are hearing no news about offshore gas wells freezing up like happened in the mid-90's that stopped major pipelines feeding gas to points north, Memphis had a close call. I was one of several who went to Memphis for a beat down by the politicians. Many folks were accusing the suppliers of intentionally withholding product to run up the price. Not true, the gas valves and regulators simply could not work in the extended cold snap back then.
They say that wind power is providing 20% of TX electric energy and half of them are out of service due to cold and lack of wind. Wonder if this is true ? I'm a skeptic of that 20% number.
I am surprised that we are hearing no news about offshore gas wells freezing up like happened in the mid-90's that stopped major pipelines feeding gas to points north, Memphis had a close call. I was one of several who went to Memphis for a beat down by the politicians. Many folks were accusing the suppliers of intentionally withholding product to run up the price. Not true, the gas valves and regulators simply could not work in the extended cold snap back then.
They say that wind power is providing 20% of TX electric energy and half of them are out of service due to cold and lack of wind. Wonder if this is true ? I'm a skeptic of that 20% number.
Typical corporate bullshite.
Executives make big bonuses “saving costs”.
Costs = infrastructure upkeep and improvements. They kick the can down the road while making bank.
Now when the system is under maximum stress it crashed. Big surprise.
They don’t give a fvck. They got theirs.
They raff from a beach in Hawaii.
Executives make big bonuses “saving costs”.
Costs = infrastructure upkeep and improvements. They kick the can down the road while making bank.
Now when the system is under maximum stress it crashed. Big surprise.
They don’t give a fvck. They got theirs.
They raff from a beach in Hawaii.
The power grid is constantly being upgraded.
When I was there, transmission loops were installed from Laredo to San Antonio, Childress to Abilene and Kingsville to Corpus. These were built for greater interconnectivity to limit outages caused by a single power generator going down.
I feel sorry for everyone’s trouble, but this weather is unprecedented.
When I was there, transmission loops were installed from Laredo to San Antonio, Childress to Abilene and Kingsville to Corpus. These were built for greater interconnectivity to limit outages caused by a single power generator going down.
I feel sorry for everyone’s trouble, but this weather is unprecedented.
Emergency = a sudden, urgent, usually unexpected occurrence or occasion requiring immediate action
Affirmative = YES - Positive
Action = Address the problem
I consider requiring 9 days to address an emergency as falling outside the definition of "emergency" timing.
Sure there will.
Old Jimbo out on the bucket truck will get fired because an icicle fell on him. We’re all about safety you understand. Never mind he has been working for three days straight in bitter cold.
In my experience this is false.
The utility companies I’ve been around tend to have a lot of concern when it comes to employee injuries. I get the icicle thing is a joke, but working on primary voltage while tired and in freezing temps is dangerous as hell. The companies I’ve worked around really do seem to step up when someone gets caught by it.
I don’t know anyone who’s been fired for an injury, even more minor, unless there was some kind of true gross negligence involved. And then it’s usually a different person than the one who was injured.
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Just like with toilet paper, what happens when demand exceeds supply ... add an unprecedented weather event that coincided with an unprecedented increase in population since the previous census.
Many of you don't recall the punishing electric bills before deregulation.
You can plan all you want, or not, but a battle plan rarely survives the first minute of battle.
Many of you don't recall the punishing electric bills before deregulation.
You can plan all you want, or not, but a battle plan rarely survives the first minute of battle.
Yeah but in this case there wasn’t even a plan. After the 2011 freeze out it was recommended power companies winterize their generators, fossil burners and green alike. But said power companies just looked at the cost and said, nah, not gonna happen again LOL.
google FERC/NERC Staff Report on the 2011 Southwest Cold Weather Event.
google FERC/NERC Staff Report on the 2011 Southwest Cold Weather Event.
I think there should definitely be a look at what caused certain generators to go offline early on. And then figure out if preventative measures to prevent such failures are cost effective for rare occurrences. And I really hope we back away from wind, but for more reasons than just this. It’s a net loss when comparing investment/output and only works because I tax dollars cover the loss.
Some companies that seems to have shut down areas for days instead of rolling their blackouts should be looked at. That should never happen. I’ve been on a 2.5/.5 hour rotation with my Coop while people on the other side of town have been on an “off” rotation from TNMP. Companies are blaming ERCOT for this. We should know who’s call it was and why it was made. I personally would need a hell of a reason from them to consider it justified. It can be hard to tell when an area has an extended outage due to being cut off vs a sub station going down. But in some instances it seems to clearly be a case of “turn off their power”.
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Reliance on wind is a problem, absolutely.
But no, the turbines will not require expensive maintenance. They just need the ice on the blades to melt and shed, and the ambient temp to get back above 0F (some can operate at lower temps).
As said on another thread,
At the peak of the storm, wind energy generation was really poor. Ice on blades initially, so turbines could not produce much or shut down on imbalance or excessive load faults. Then the temps got so low that some turbines were faulting on low temp. Winds were down at key times. Solar was nothing due to cloud cover and snow/ice on the panels.
Yes, conventional plants had problems too. But if we were not so reliant on wind, the problem would still been much less.
But heck yeah, let's go with Biden for 100% wind and solar.
Temps in the teens are one thing in plant operations. Temps below that are yet another. Been quite some time since so much of the state was in single digits.
I suspect that lessons learned from long ago were lost when guys retired. And new construction/repairs/expansions since the last similar severe cold event had never seen these kind of temps. Sometimes a weak point escapes detection until it is too late. You learn the lesson, fix the problem.
Oil patch has been down so low for so long, I am not surprised the gas companies weren't making the expenditures to ensure flow to market. Disappointed, but not surprised.
Don't think the generation companies are apathetic. The ones that are down are ticked as heck about missing out on pricing as high as $8000 per MWh (normally $15.00-23.00). No one wanted to have outages. But with taxpayer subsidized wind power driving prices so low in ERCOT, consequences happen. Less was probably spent in many areas, including winterizing.
Oncor appears to have technical issues that are preventing it from rolling the blackouts.
Not sure how much blame really ERCOT deserves. I had been seeing the warning notices to generators for some days in advance.
Write your state congressmen and demand a cap on wind and solar.
At the peak of the storm, wind energy generation was really poor. Ice on blades initially, so turbines could not produce much or shut down on imbalance or excessive load faults. Then the temps got so low that some turbines were faulting on low temp. Winds were down at key times. Solar was nothing due to cloud cover and snow/ice on the panels.
Yes, conventional plants had problems too. But if we were not so reliant on wind, the problem would still been much less.
But heck yeah, let's go with Biden for 100% wind and solar.
Temps in the teens are one thing in plant operations. Temps below that are yet another. Been quite some time since so much of the state was in single digits.
I suspect that lessons learned from long ago were lost when guys retired. And new construction/repairs/expansions since the last similar severe cold event had never seen these kind of temps. Sometimes a weak point escapes detection until it is too late. You learn the lesson, fix the problem.
Oil patch has been down so low for so long, I am not surprised the gas companies weren't making the expenditures to ensure flow to market. Disappointed, but not surprised.
Don't think the generation companies are apathetic. The ones that are down are ticked as heck about missing out on pricing as high as $8000 per MWh (normally $15.00-23.00). No one wanted to have outages. But with taxpayer subsidized wind power driving prices so low in ERCOT, consequences happen. Less was probably spent in many areas, including winterizing.
Oncor appears to have technical issues that are preventing it from rolling the blackouts.
Not sure how much blame really ERCOT deserves. I had been seeing the warning notices to generators for some days in advance.
Write your state congressmen and demand a cap on wind and solar.
IMO, this is where we need to put our $$/quest for reliable electric generation efforts for the future, not solar or wind.
Future Zero-Emissions Power Plants: Scientists Collaborate on Development of Commercial Fusion Energy (scitechdaily.com)
Future Zero-Emissions Power Plants: Scientists Collaborate on Development of Commercial Fusion Energy (scitechdaily.com)
