I have mixed feelings on this....

[Havok1]

I am framing his actions as reasonable because they are the same REASONABLE actions countless other police including myself and officers I personally know take every day.

Yesterday, I got sent to a call at an address for squatters on a construction site. Well, the address was a regular house but next door was a house with boarded up windows, doors and obviously under construction... the comp didn't answer when I called back to try to confirm (squatting isnt as time sensitive as a potential assault in progress).
Which house do I go to?
Do I value the description or the address?

It is not normal for people inside to not hear and know when police knock and announce. We hear people scurring around hiding drugs etc all the time who then try to tell us they took a long time to answer because they were sleeping...

But in the end, whether the guy knew, suspected or didnt know who was at his door, HIS choice to display a gun in his hand to a deputy responding to a call of reported violence was the single action that precipitated his death. If the officer wouldn't let the man reach for and pick up a gun, why would he let him stand there with one already in his hand? When dealing with police or even armed citizens, certain actions will bring about a certain response, like fiddling with the cheese of a mousetrap, the result isn't the traps fault but the fault of the one that initiated the final sequence, which here was having a gun in hand when answering the door to someone he SHOULD have know were police.

This thread really should be moved to the FAFO thread, because that is all this is, no different than Austin's own AF "vet" who thought he could run up to cars with AKs...





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Another post from you that is as detached from reality as Joe Biden. There are numerous reasons people could take a while to come to the door. They could be elderly, taking a shit, etc. or just doing literally anything that they feel is more important than answering a random knock at the door. As I said earlier in this thread, if I’m not expecting someone, I check my cameras before answering the door. I’ve also had people come to the door while I was sleeping before, so that is actually a thing. If I decide to go open the door, I’ll get there when I get there. If someone didn’t ask you to come to their house, nobody owes it to you to rush to the door.

 

[Havok1]

UPS doesn’t knock like the police, it’s a completely different thing.

I would probably look into hearing aids or hope someone is around you all the time that can hear well. If there’s a fire and smoke detectors we’re going off or a neighbor were to knock to alert you and you cannot hear them, you could find yourself in a bad situation.

Smoke detectors are much louder and higher pitched than a knock at the door. They are also typically placed in every bedroom and hallway in newer homes. Not hearing a knock at the door over other noise in the house is much more likely even for a person with decent hearing than not hearing a smoke detector.

 

[Renegade]

Thats 1 of those moments that little voice in your head says “ it was at that moment he knew he fucked up”. Even if you aren’t doing anything wrong that knock will tell you otherwise.

He wasn’t doing anything wrong

Karen fabricated a story and lied.

 

[Whistler]

It is not normal for people inside to not hear and know when police knock and announce. We hear people scurring around hiding drugs etc all the time who then try to tell us they took a long time to answer because they were sleeping...

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So this is the thing... in every instance you have interpreted unknown actions and sounds to nefarious motives. You don't know if they're hiding drugs, you just assume that because apparently everyone you encounter is a bad guy. They might be putting their clothes on or hiding sex toys, who knows? Not you.
You (and others) assume he heard, knew or should have known (wtf?) a police officer was at his door but regardless shouldn't answer his door armed. Says who? Fear of being murdered by police? Again I say WTF?

I'm done trying to explain how it looks and feels to non-LE but the LEO responses in this thread have left me disillusioned and far less trusting of LE who apparently think the power entrusted to them is a license to kill. It's f**cking not.

 

[Dred]

This thread really should be moved to the FAFO thread, because that is all this is, no different than Austin's own AF "vet" who thought he could run up to cars with AKs...





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K ... so ... How to add my cent and a half without entering the horse cadaver mutilation party? Dunno, but ...

@cycleguy2300, I want to start by voicing my pleasure with your success keeping that home safe promise to your family. I respect the substantial dangers of your work site.

That said, I hope you are very close to a full benefits retirement. Reading your commentary, I think you may qualify for PTSD disability. The airman was clearly no threat. Adding your belief that he should hear something just cause the words originated in an officer's voice box makes your argument frightening.

The airman was not at ready, or even low ready with that handgun. The officer was at ready giving him time to end that airman before he could possibly get to a ready. The command to drop the gun was given well after Barney Fife dumped his load. The officer should have started the command to drop the weapon and fired if and only if the handgun moved toward a ready position.

I posit the airman demonstrated trigger discipline as well. No discharge from his firearm even after taking fire. Booger hook on trigger finger would have fired.

I'd stay and play, but I prefer leaving you thinking 'bout retiring soon. That's a sincere request which considers the gap between reality and your expectations. That gap ain't healthy for either of us.

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[Renegade]

I'm just waiting for the officer to be charged, which he should be and will be. Very bad shoot.

Could go either way.

Cops tend to give fellow cops an extreme benefit of the doubt in split second shootings. This thread is evidence of that. We have also seen it ourselves in shootings in Texas like Amber Guyger and DPS did not want to charge her.

My guess is Sheriff has conflict of interest and FDLE will take criminal investigation (similar to Guyger and Dallas passing to DPS). OIS report provided more than enough for charges/indictment. Crump of course is pushing for charges.

I myself want Karen imprisoned more than anybody. She got Airman killed, officer fired, etc., and ruined many lives. She will likely face nothing. Life is not fair.

 

[toddnjoyce]

…Karen fabricated a story and lied.

That should be punished.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Another post from you that is as detached from reality as Joe Biden. There are numerous reasons people could take a while to come to the door. They could be elderly, taking a shit, etc. or just doing literally anything that they feel is more important than answering a random knock at the door. As I said earlier in this thread, if I’m not expecting someone, I check my cameras before answering the door. I’ve also had people come to the door while I was sleeping before, so that is actually a thing. If I decide to go open the door, I’ll get there when I get there. If someone didn’t ask you to come to their house, nobody owes it to you to rush to the door.

You love to make bold claims.

Where am I wrong? Where am I detached? What similar cases have the police been held criminally responsible for a use of deadly force like this?

I've shared law, case law and anecdotes to support my position and you out of ignorance go banging your gums about things you simply dont know about or have experience in.



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[cycleguy2300]

That should be punished.

Harshly.

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[Havok1]

You love to make bold claims.

Where am I wrong? Where am I detached? What similar cases have the police been held criminally responsible for a use of deadly force like this?

I've shared law, case law and anecdotes to support my position and you out of ignorance go banging your gums about things you simply dont know about or have experience in.



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On nearly everything you’ve said in this thread. Just because something is case law doesn’t mean that it protects the officer. It just means it’s considered when evaluating the officers actions. In this case, his actions did not measure up to the standard set by the case law.

 

[cycleguy2300]

On nearly everything you’ve said in this thread. Just because something is case law doesn’t mean that it protects the officer. It just means it’s considered when evaluating the officers actions. In this case, his actions did not measure up to the standard set by the case law.

Ok, while I suspect whack-a-mole has begun...

Which action by the officer was the offending one and why? I know you are a bit handicapped because you are not an officer and don't have the training, experience or mindset that would put you in the deputy's shoes, but if you can try and describe the unreasonable action the deputy took and the alternative, reasonable choice he should have made.

Please remember hindsight is not allowed and use only the facts known the the deputy as he knocks and announced.

He knocks and loudly announced a second later the door swings open... GO!

Again, I'll ask: Had the man reached for a gun, should the officer not have shot him?

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[Havok1]

Ok, while I suspect whack-a-mole has begun...

Which action by the officer was the offending one and why? I know you are a bit handicapped because you are not an officer and don't have the training, experience or mindset that would put you in the deputy's shoes, but if you can try and describe the unreasonable action the deputy took and the alternative, reasonable choice he should have made.

Please remember hindsight is not allowed and use only the facts known the the deputy as he knocks and announced.

He knocks and loudly announced a second later the door swings open... GO!

Again, I'll ask: Had the man reached for a gun, should the officer not have shot him?

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Shot him, and not shot him.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Shot him, and not shot him.

Why was shooting him unreasonable? Can you support your conclusion or your reasoning with anything beyond your personal disapproval?

"Not shot him" isn't an action, it is an inaction.

What ACTION should the deputy have taken when the door opened and a man with a gun in hand confronted him where a violent family disturbance was reported?

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[Renegade]

Which action by the officer was the offending one and why?

Shooting him was the offending action and the why is outlined in the OIS report:

The objective facts as discovered in this administrative investigation do not show Mr. Fortson made hostile, attacking movements, and therefore, the objective facts do not support the use of deadly force as an appropriate response to Mr. Fortson’s actions. Deputy Eddie Duran’s use of deadly force was not objectively reasonable.

 

[Tblack89]

Smoke detectors are much louder and higher pitched than a knock at the door. They are also typically placed in every bedroom and hallway in newer homes. Not hearing a knock at the door over other noise in the house is much more likely even for a person with decent hearing than not hearing a smoke detector.

What about the knock?

 

[Tblack89]

He wasn’t doing anything wrong

Karen fabricated a story and lied.

Where did I say he did something wrong?


She should definitely be charged if she made up a story that lead to all this.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Shooting him was the offending action and the why is outlined in the OIS report:

The objective facts as discovered in this administrative investigation do not show Mr. Fortson made hostile, attacking movements, and therefore, the objective facts do not support the use of deadly force as an appropriate response to Mr. Fortson’s actions. Deputy Eddie Duran’s use of deadly force was not objectively reasonable.

I put forth that opening the door with a gun in hand is threatening, hostile and attacking.

There is no legitimate reason to open a door to a common area displaying a gun in hand in response to someone knocking on a door (much less to a deputy who was loudly, clearly and plainly announcing himself) and without legitimate reason, is is more than fair to presume he had illegitimate reasons to display the handgun.

How fast can someone point and shoot (hip) from the man's position? 1/4 of a second? Definitely less than 1/2 of a second... even if the deputy had drawn, aimed and NOT shot, but instead gave commands, he would not be able to react to the man's "hostile and attacking" actions which painted the deputy into having only one reasonable option.

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[Renegade]

Where did I say he did something wrong?


She should definitely be charged if she made up a story that lead to all this.

I never said you said he did something wrong. I was clarifying what you wrote, that he did nothing wrong:

Thats 1 of those moments that little voice in your head says “ it was at that moment he knew he fucked up”. Even if you aren’t doing anything wrong that knock will tell you otherwise.

 

[Renegade]

She should definitely be charged if she made up a story that lead to all this.

"if"?

ROFL

 

[Tblack89]

I never said you said he did something wrong. I was clarifying what you wrote, that he did nothing wrong:

Thats 1 of those moments that little voice in your head says “ it was at that moment he knew he fucked up”. Even if you aren’t doing anything wrong that knock will tell you otherwise.

Got you.