Cop shoves old man in Niagara Square

[TX OMFS]

Just watched the video. I'm thinking basilar skull fracture with possible intracranial bleed. I don't think that's fake blood.

http://www.emdocs.net/basilar-skull-fracture-basics-beyond/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK470175/

 

[vmax]

I was fooling around about 3 years ago on a jog with my son and we decided to sprint the last 100 yards, backwards.. (dumb move)
I was doing great till I lost my footing and fell backwards hard and my head slammed the pavement much like the one in the video except I was running and had much more momentum

I had a knot on my head and a sore neck for a few days. I’m sorry, I just can’t buy it since we’ve been fooled so many times before by these people.
It’s okay to think differently about it.
I’ll admit, I could be completely wrong about it.
It’s just my observation and nobody else’s

 

[oldag]

I might have been in the area in my thirties.
Now, in my sixties, I know better, and I'm alot more fragile.

Fragile??

I ain't fragile. I just break a lot easier than I used to.

 

[oldag]

Why the shove? Couldn't the office have shown a little discretion and self control?

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Why the shove? Couldn't the office have shown a little discretion and self control?

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

Continuum of force

- Shout - done
- Shove - did
- Show (weapon)
- Shoot

 

[Renegade]

Why the shove? Couldn't the office have shown a little discretion and self control?

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

Gramps needed a shot of OC to the face.

 

[Renegade]

Continuum of force

- Shout - done
- Shove - did
- Show (weapon)
- Shoot

Continuum of force is escalation to match the actors escalation. Gramps did not use force at all that I could see.

What was needed was Ask/Tell/Make. But the events unraveled too fast for that.

 

[Glenn B]

It is difficult for me to empathize with any cop who uses unnecessary force when all he had to do was stay hands off in the first place or even if going hands on should have used 'soft techniques' not 'hard techniques'.

In this case, not sure if this was necessary or unnecessary force but it certainly did not appear necessary in the video. That though is not enough to judge but then again the cops reportedly said the man tripped, he obviously did not appear to trip he seemingly was pushed and fell. Strike two for the officer, first was the video showing the push, second was the reported lie (if true). Third could be he just shrugged and walked away when it appeared the guy was bleeding badly. The officer may yet be found faultless but that may take some doing if other evidence is not produced that shows otherwise than those things I mentioned above.

 

[jordanmills]

Continuum of force is escalation to match the actors escalation. Gramps did not use force at all that I could see.

What was needed was Ask/Tell/Make. But the events unraveled too fast for that.

it looked like he might have been grabbing around one of their holsters. That will earn an immediate shove.

 

[Renegade]

it looked like he might have been grabbing around one of their holsters. That will earn an immediate shove.

He had a helmet in left hand and a cell phone in the right hand. He could not grab anything. He seemed to be pointing at something with the right hand.

 

[TX OMFS]

Looks like the old man made contact with the officer.

The officer did not ignore the man on the ground. He was pulled back & medics came in.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Continuum of force is escalation to match the actors escalation. Gramps did not use force at all that I could see.

What was needed was Ask/Tell/Make. But the events unraveled too fast for that.

What we don’t know is what had transpired before The video starts.

 

[Glenn B]

Continuum of force

- Shout - done
- Shove - did
- Show (weapon)
- Shoot

What "continum of force" is that - the Stasi's or the Three Stooges?

One of the few or several use of force continums, as it was taught to me, was as follows:

B. The Use of Force Continuum

1.The use of force continuum is a model used to illustrate the levels of force an officer may need to use to gain control over a subject. The continuum is comprised of five (5) levels. It begins with the mere presence of the officer and can escalate to the use of deadly force. It must be noted that an appropriate initial use of force may be deadly force and that a deadly force situation may de-escalate to a lower level on the use of force continuum.

2.An officer may have to rapidly escalate or de-escalate through the use of force continuum, depending on the totality of circumstances present. “Totality of the circumstances” refers to those factors existing in each individual case. These factors include level of training, strength, age, and the size of the officer and suspect. Also included are the weapon(s) involved, presence of other officers, suspects or bystanders and environmental conditions.

Outlined below are the five (5) levels of the use of force continuum and appropriate officer action for each level.

a.Mere Officer Presence Without Action

(1)Professional, courteous demeanor;
(2)Positive attitude;
(3)Physical condition (fitness);
(4)Posture and body language; and
(5)Neatness of attire or uniform and equipment.

b.Verbal Commands
(1)Professional, firm voice;
(2)Instructions should be simple, easy to understand and repeated as necessary; and
(3)Only one officer should issue verbal commands.

c.Soft Techniques
(1)Minimal chance of injury, empty-hand;
(2)Escort position;
(3)"Come-along" holds, to include the use of impact weapons;
(4)Touch pressure points;
(5)Specified electronic defense modules/electro-muscular devices; and
(6)Use of chemical agents.

d.Hard Techniques
(1)Greater possibility of injury to participants;
(2)Strikes with hand, arm, foot, leg, head or whole body;
(3)Throws;
(4)Take-downs;
(5)Impact weapons when used for striking; and
(6)Specialty impact weapons.

e.Deadly Force
(1)Deadly force is the use of any force that is likely to cause death or serious physical injury. Deadly force does not include force that is not likely to cause death or serious physical injury, but unexpectedly results in such death or injury.
(2)Deadly force may be employed only when the officer has probable cause to believe there is an imminent threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

(3)Deadly force may be used to prevent the escape of a fleeing subject if there is probable cause to believe that escape of the subject would pose an imminent danger of death or serious physical injury to the officer or to another person.

(4)Examples of deadly force include, but are not limited to, any discharge of firearms against persons or animals, any use of impact weapons to strike the neck or head, any strangulation techniques, any strikes to the throat, and the use of any edged weapons.

That was the use of Force Continuum from an actual law enforcement agency years ago. May or may not have changed since then. You will note, showing a weapon is not included.

So was it okay to: shout and shove as you say was done or were there other factors that would have mitigated the amount of force that was used?

 

[jordanmills]

He had a helmet in left hand and a cell phone in the right hand. He could not grab anything. He seemed to be pointing at something with the right hand.

Yes, but if I were in the cop's place, I wouldn't assume that he hadn't dropped the phone while I was watching his face or other hand. Any hand near my belt on my holster side is bad news.

 

[stdreb27]

Looks like he played basketball back in the day.


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[Renegade]

What we don’t know is what had transpired before The video starts.

The other side of the street video shows he clearly approached the cops with deliberate speed even though they were all moving in a line forward.

IMO, he was clearly looking to confront them, though not violently probably just run his mouth.

 

[Renegade]

Yes, but if I were in the cop's place, I wouldn't assume that he hadn't dropped the phone while I was watching his face or other hand. Any hand near my belt on my holster side is bad news.

his hand never got near there. There is nothing nefarious here. Cops were not being assaulted or at risk, nor did they react like they were. They gave him a minor push out of the way and the Doofus just lost his balance and banged his head.

 

[RoadRunner]

I don't know why this is such a big deal, the victim is not black an old white man.

 

[Younggun]

The reason he was shoved is because the cops were moving in a line to push back protestors. If the line breaks in one spot it’s fucked.

The old man was stupid to move against the police line unless he was looking to challenge it. And if you are looking to challenge it you should expect to get a reaction.

Appeared to me one officer told the others to keep the line and stayed back to handle the issue.


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[oldag]

The reason he was shoved is because the cops were moving in a line to push back protestors. If the line breaks in one spot it’s fucked.

The old man was stupid to move against the police line unless he was looking to challenge it. And if you are looking to challenge it you should expect to get a reaction.

Appeared to me one officer told the others to keep the line and stayed back to handle the issue.


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So part the line momentarily and reform on the other side of the old guy. He posed no threat in this particular case.