Breaking news shots fired at trump rally

[Havok1]

In no way did you point that out.

Well the secret service appreciates your perspective.

 

[Johnny Diamond]

I'm curious as to what elements define a "conspiracy" for you.

Would it require the shooter to be a government employee/asset - or would their intentionally and massively setting the stage, as they did, be enough to qualify?

Amen sister.

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[General Zod]

I'm curious as to what elements define a "conspiracy" for you.

Would it require the shooter to be a government employee/asset - or would their intentionally and massively setting the stage, as they did, be enough to qualify?

It would require evidence. So far all of the evidence points to a massive failure on the part of the Secret Service, made up of equal parts complacency and distaste for Trump at the leadership level, plus an opportunistic wannabe who thought he'd make a name for himself and found the door wide open.


If your cousin comes to stay with you, and one evening when you're out he leaves the door unlocked and the gate open when he goes to the liquor store and you get robbed while he's gone, was it a conspiracy on his part? Or was it a series of stupid, careless decisions that someone happened upon and took advantage of?

As I keep quoting here: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

 

[General Zod]

Well the secret service appreciates your perspective.

So you really didn't read anything I typed. Typical of you.

 

[Havok1]

So you really didn't read anything I typed. Typical of you.

Not agreeing with your flawed perspective doesn’t mean I didn’t read what you typed.

 

[General Zod]

Not agreeing with your flawed perspective doesn’t mean I didn’t read what you typed.

Saying the Secret Service appreciates my opinion proves that you either didn't read it, or have no reading comprehension skills. My "flawed persepctive" is based on the facts available and logical deduction, as opposed to your pathological need for it to be some vast government conspiracy.

 

[Johnny Diamond]

I suppose that negligence can't ever be intentional?

Asking for a friend.
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[General Zod]

I suppose that negligence can't ever be intentional?

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It can, and I'm not saying it wasn't (in fact, I mentioned the leadership's dislike of Trump as a factor). But "negligence" is not the same as engaging in a conspiracy to make a specific event happen at a specific time. I have no reason to believe (and have seen no evidence that proves) that the Secret Service and DHS conspired with a 20 year old dipshit to attempt to eliminate Donald Trump. Although it is entertaining to imagine various enemies of his sitting around the table and planning it, and one says "Okay, now for the shooter we need the weakest link we can possibly put into this chain..."

 

[MountainGirl]

If your cousin comes to stay with you, and one evening when you're out he leaves the door unlocked and the gate open when he goes to the liquor store and you get robbed while he's gone, was it a conspiracy on his part? Or was it a series of stupid, careless decisions that someone happened upon and took advantage of?

One cousin, one night, likely stupidity.
But several cousins over several nights, some leaving doors open, others leaving gates open, others posting on FB about all the treasures here? Yes. That is a conspiracy to make me vulnerable to being robbed.

As I keep quoting here: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

And as I've posted: The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[General Zod]

And as I've posted: The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

But a lot of people are latching onto evidence that does not exist and using it as "proof".

One cousin, one night, likely stupidity.
But several cousins over several nights, some leaving doors open, others leaving gates open, others posting on FB about all the treasures here? Yes. That is a conspiracy to make me vulnerable to being robbed.

Conspiracy would require them to actively coordinate with the robber. Negligence and stupidity do not equal an active conspiracy, but do indicate that you need to kick those cousins out - just like DHS and Secret Service need to see major housecleaning at all levels to prevent this kind of stupidity from happening again.

 

[MountainGirl]

...
Conspiracy would require them to actively coordinate with the robber. ...

Ah okay. Your definition of "conspiracy" requires direct participation with the end actor. Mine does not.

 

[General Zod]

Ah okay. Your definition of "conspiracy" requires direct participation with the end actor. Mine does not.

It's not much of a conspiracy if the guy who's supposed to accomplish the goal isn't included.

What you seem to be considering a "conspiracy" I'm considering "a culture of negligence and dereliction of duty at all levels, particularly the leadership level".

 

[Havok1]

It would require evidence. So far all of the evidence points to a massive failure on the part of the Secret Service, made up of equal parts complacency and distaste for Trump at the leadership level, plus an opportunistic wannabe who thought he'd make a name for himself and found the door wide open.


If your cousin comes to stay with you, and one evening when you're out he leaves the door unlocked and the gate open when he goes to the liquor store and you get robbed while he's gone, was it a conspiracy on his part? Or was it a series of stupid, careless decisions that someone happened upon and took advantage of?

As I keep quoting here: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

This is an overly simplistic comparison. According to the FBI, 65% of burglary victims knew the burglar. So did the cousin leave the door unlocked intentionally knowing there would be a break in?

We shouldn’t attribute to malice that:
Numerous elected officials including the Potato have constantly referred to Trump as a threat to America.
A former CIA director has called Trump a threat that America needs to be protected from.
Now former FBI employees stated they had an “insurance policy” to prevent Trump from being reelected. Rather than being criminally charged, those employees were paid $2m because we were made aware of their text messages.
A senior secret service agent has publicly stated she would not protect trump and wasn’t fired for it.

 

[MountainGirl]

It's not much of a conspiracy if the guy who's supposed to accomplish the goal isn't included.

We can disagree on this.

Hatfields & McCoys are at war. Rufus Hatfield and his brothers saw all but clean through the bridge crossing the holler, then always tried to funnel Buck McCoy in that direction, knowing that sooner or later... and eventually Buck was kilt.

There's no proof that the Hatfield boys directly pushed Buck into the ravine, but there's ample proof they conspired to make it happen by sawing the supports.

What you seem to be considering a "conspiracy" I'm considering "a culture of negligence and dereliction of duty at all levels, particularly the leadership level".

Add to that ^^ the element of it being directed at Trump and it changes things, imo. Just like the Hatfields.

 

[Johnny Diamond]

It can, and I'm not saying it wasn't (in fact, I mentioned the leadership's dislike of Trump as a factor). But "negligence" is not the same as engaging in a conspiracy to make a specific event happen at a specific time. I have no reason to believe (and have seen no evidence that proves) that the Secret Service and DHS conspired with a 20 year old dipshit to attempt to eliminate Donald Trump. Although it is entertaining to imagine various enemies of his sitting around the table and planning it, and one says "Okay, now for the shooter we need the weakest link we can possibly put into this chain..."

Brother as I posted in another thread you enjoy your scotch and I'll enjoy my bourbon, I've decided to redouble my efforts to have a light foot print in political threads, not easy but I'm working on it.

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[Havok1]

It's not much of a conspiracy if the guy who's supposed to accomplish the goal isn't included.

What you seem to be considering a "conspiracy" I'm considering "a culture of negligence and dereliction of duty at all levels, particularly the leadership level".

it’s entirely possible for there to be a conspiracy and the shooter not even realize he is a part of it.

 

[Johnny Diamond]

It's not much of a conspiracy if the guy who's supposed to accomplish the goal isn't included.

What you seem to be considering a "conspiracy" I'm considering "a culture of negligence and dereliction of duty at all levels, particularly the leadership level".

You don't suppose anticipation, or even willful nudging is participation? Ok I'm done.

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[MountainGirl]

it’s entirely possible for there to be a conspiracy and the shooter not even realize he is a part of it.

Under my definition, yep.
Under his definition, nope.

 

[General Zod]

We can disagree on this.

Hatfields & McCoys are at war. Rufus Hatfield and his brothers saw all but clean through the bridge crossing the holler, then always tried to funnel Buck McCoy in that direction, knowing that sooner or later... and eventually Buck was kilt.

There's no proof that the Hatfield boys directly pushed Buck into the ravine, but there's ample proof they conspired to make it happen by sawing the supports.

Ummmm...no. In your example, those dirty Hatfields absolutely intended their actions to end in the death of my esteemed ancestor. The were, in fact, the conspirators and the murderers, as sure as if they had pointed a gun at him and pulled the trigger rather than engage in Coyote vs Roadrunner level antics.

 

[General Zod]

You don't suppose anticipation, or even willful nudging is participation? Ok I'm done.

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I see no evidence of either - particularly "willful nudging". Unless evidence of communication between the Dorito Director or her staff and the shooter is found, in which case I'll change my mind.