Austin man sentenced for lawful ftf sale ???

[cuate]

We would welcome a Texas without wetbacks or the BATFE and/or other Federal Preachers with a Badge & Gun, but like fire ants, hemmorhoids, nitwit judges, and the like they are here.
So Keep both eyes wide open, cover your hiney with both hands, and speak only when necessary and with caution....

 

[Partychief67]

The easy way to protect yourself is by not being stupid and having ethics.

With all due respect to Rum Runner, "ethics" can be a highly subjective matter. There is giant ethical leap between selling to a criminally inclined or violent felon and just some working stiff that happens to be a Mexican national that outstayed his green card. And in terms a straw purchaser I can recall at least a half a dozen times at various gun shows when a buddy of mine walking around with me wound up buying a gun that I was looking at earlier in the show but passed up on it. To an observer that could sure look a lot like a straw purchase situation but is 100% legit.

 

[MR Redneck]

Well, if it was a straw purchase, then why didnt the other guy get in trouble?

 

[matefrio]

This has nothing to do with an illegal using a TX drivers License. As far as I know, there has been nothing said about whether the guy who used the license is legal or illegal. There are some other issues, but the real issue is a "straw man" sale. The main issue is that Copeland sold a gun to person A knowing it was really going to person B. The easy way to protect yourself is by not being stupid and having ethics.

I would like to see what he charges were pressed and what they got to stick and how here.

As far as I can tell.... the only thing he could be charged with is lying on Federal Form 4473 by being proven to check the box Yes “I am the buyer of this firearm” with intent to sell to a third party. I don't see any other laws where a non-ffl could be charged.

 

[Rum Runner]

With all due respect to Rum Runner, "ethics" can be a highly subjective matter. There is giant ethical leap between selling to a criminally inclined or violent felon and just some working stiff that happens to be a Mexican national that outstayed his green card. And in terms a straw purchaser I can recall at least a half a dozen times at various gun shows when a buddy of mine walking around with me wound up buying a gun that I was looking at earlier in the show but passed up on it. To an observer that could sure look a lot like a straw purchase situation but is 100% legit.

I totally appreciate what you are saying. There are just a bunch of things in this particular case that stink to high hell. I dont think any reasonable person would have been selling at all, because there were not supposed to be any (non-FFL) sales at this show and Copeland is not an FFL. In addition Aviles had tried to buy the weapon several times but Copeland refused to sell because he didnt have a DL. IF YOU BELIEVE THE AUTHORITIES (which is a whole other argument) : "Agents witnessed the Defendant negotiate a price for a handgun with Hipolito Aviles, who then handed cash to a second hispanic male, who then handed Aviles’ cash and his own identification to the Defendant. The Defendant in turn sold the firearm and handed it to the “straw” purchaser, who then handed the firearm to Hipolito Aviles."
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/GovtResponsetoMotiontoSupressPaulCopelandCase.pdf

I think we can agree that this wasn't the same as you looking at a gun several times and your friend buying it.

"On Saturday Gun Show attendees were met at the door with a handbill giving the same information, anyone without an FFL wanting to sell or trade a firearm must do so through an FFL. "
"Mr. Copeland admits he knew this gun show was under close scrutiny."
https://www.tsra.com/index.php?opti...gun-show-chaos&catid=55:tripp-talk&Itemid=113

Yet he still sold a gun w/o being an FFL in a sketchy situation at best. Copeland was an idiot regardless of whether or not he was set up.

 

[Rum Runner]

Well, if it was a straw purchase, then why didnt the other guy get in trouble?

"Aviles, the undocumented immigrant, was charged with possession of a firearm by a prohibited person, served a little over six months in prison and was deported on July 8, U.S. Attorney's Office spokesman Daryl Fields said."

 

[majormadmax]

It doesn't really matter of anyone here believes the authorities or not, because a grand jury of 12 of Copeland's peers apparantly did!

That, my friends, is the bottom line.

As for Copeland, he sounds like an ass, and most likely got what he deserved...

During the operation, ATF agents’ attention was drawn to the Defendant, who was talking to a group of customers in a loud and boisterous manner. He stated that he had served his country, been shot and stabbed and that he could sell firearms to whoever he wanted. When asked if he was afraid that there were undercover officers at the show, the Defendant looked around and stated, “I don’t see any police officers.” An ATF agent was standing directly in front of him when he made the statement

 

[matefrio]

Again, my question is: How do the laws of straw purchases apply to the seller who isn't a FFL? The only way I can see is if they lied on the 4433 at the time of purchase.

 

[Renegade]

Again, my question is: How do the laws of straw purchases apply to the seller who isn't a FFL? The only way I can see is if they lied on the 4433 at the time of purchase.

What they are saying is he knowingly transferred a gun to a prohibited person by using an intermediary. The jury bought it. His idiotic comments as quoted by majormadmax above did not help his defense.

 

[Bithabus]

Again, my question is: How do the laws of straw purchases apply to the seller who isn't a FFL? The only way I can see is if they lied on the 4433 at the time of purchase.

Why would there be a 4473 involved if there is no FFL involved? As a private seller it is illegal to sell knowingly to a prohibited person. What they do with their gun after the sale has nothing to do with you (contrary to internet myth).

 

[Renegade]

Why would there be a 4473 involved if there is no FFL involved? As a private seller it is illegal to sell knowingly to a prohibited person. What they do with their gun after the sale has nothing to do with you (contrary to internet myth).

That was his point. No FFL = No 4473 = No Straw Purchase.

 

[Bithabus]

Ah.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

They basically convicted him, effectively saying to everyone that he should have known better just because the guy was Hispanic-looking, effectively saying that he didn't racially profile the guy so he should be convicted. How much F'in sense does that make?! If it were a FFL dealer that did racially profile the guy (can't say I wouldn't do the same), he'd likely be sued for "racism". Hey, I'm half Mexican, but if someone comes in that barely speaks English, looks like they just came from Mexico, and doesn't have a valid ID, I will show them the door. That is not racist, that is common sense. Sounds to me like Mr. Copeland got a bad rap and should not have been convicted on those grounds, however it sounds like he was also probably an idiot and should have told that guy and his friends to take a hike. I've had several younger Hispanic chicks attempt to straw purchase AK's and other semi auto rifles plenty of times before (always ridiculously obvious they are cartel straw purchases), and the answer is always NO. NO is a word that more people should learn.

 

[San Antone RR]

. NO is a word that more people should learn.

100% agreed. He opened his mouth and dared the ATF to stop him. Like I said in an earlier post, they did just that and now Mr. Copeland is a convicted felon; convicted of nothing more than stupidity and bullheadedness. He made his bed. Now he will sleep in it for the rest of his life as a felon.

 

[majormadmax]

Copeland didn't get a bad rap, he had obvious indicators to a straw purchase and knowingly chose to ignore them. His responses when approached by the ATF are a clue to it, his immediate reaction was "I sold it to the guy with the ID!" Sorry, dumbass, but you knew damn well that it was a straw purchase in the making and by participating (and taunting the ATF), Copeland brought this shitstorm down upon himself. He has no one to blame but himself.

It may be fun to blame the government for someone's stupidity, but this isn't a case of some innocent person brought down by the Draconian ATF; it was some loudmouthed asshole that brought attention to himself then stepped in it big time. He got what he deserved.

Honestly, put yourself in his position. Had someone who could not produce a Texas ID came up to you wanting to purchase a firearm several times, then handed his buddy the money to buy it for him, would you actually sell it to his buddy? I hope not…

 

[Renegade]

Honestly, put yourself in his position. Had someone who could not produce a Texas ID came up to you wanting to purchase a firearm several times, then handed his buddy the money to buy it for him, would you actually sell it to his buddy? I hope not…

Exactly. He knew the gun was going to a prohibited person.

 

[majormadmax]

Exactly. He knew the gun was going to a prohibited person.

Yep, INTENT is the key behind a straw purchase.

 

[codygjohnson]

I've had several younger Hispanic chicks attempt to straw purchase AK's and other semi auto rifles plenty of times before (always ridiculously obvious they are cartel straw purchases), and the answer is always NO.

I just got this urge to go into my local gun store and as I look down at a post-it note say, "excuse me sir, I would like to buy several AK 15s and AR 47s." "This shouldn't be a problem as all of my identifications are in order and I like to huntz the animalz."

Sounds like a new YouTube series...

 

[Dust]

Why would there be a 4473 involved if there is no FFL involved? As a private seller it is illegal to sell knowingly to a prohibited person. What they do with their gun after the sale has nothing to do with you (contrary to internet myth).

Technically it does. At least indirectly. If a gun I bought but then sold, was used in a crime, they would only have me as the owner, because there is no required papertrail after the original purchase.

 

[matefrio]

Yep, INTENT is the key behind a straw purchase.

For FFLs, and 4433 forms. For private sales ...???