any of you not full fledged republicans?

[Sam7sf]

I don’t think the officers themselves are responsible. The heads of agencies in the bureaucracies and maybe even the scene commanders, should have got prison sentences, but not the average officer

No sir. All involved did not do the right thing or try to stop it.

 

[Axxe55]

I mean I agree that the family shouldn’t have been pursued to begin with. I just disagree that shooting at the feds was alright. My belief is that their aveneue was the court only

So gunning down a 14 year old boy and a dog are acceptable?

 

[fork3]

So gunning down a 14 year old boy and a dog are acceptable?

No. Bureaucrats and scene commanders should have seen prison

 

[Axxe55]

No. Bureaucrats and scene commanders should have seen prison

They didn't fire the shots that killed a 14 year old boy, while he was retreating, or the dog as well.

 

[zackmars]

idk a lot about that admittedly. the waco thing always fascinated me more. I will say from what little I know, the feds seemed to be a bit too aggressive and pushy, and they should really only bother people with warrants or high degree of probable cause of seriously illegal activity. I don’t even know what the beef at ruby ridge was about actually. So i really can’t say much more

Edit: alright, I read a bit more. My additional thoughts: if the feds wanted him that badly, they probably should have outwaited him. There was no reason to rush it and go in when they did. 2. Even if what he did was against the law (which I probably don’t agree with the law anyways, they need to have discretion about what they really pursue. As for shooting those feds, no. if he was captured alive, he should have been charged with shooting at them

There is one thing you do not understand. The federal government is a faceless monster.

After Ruby Ridge, the ATF (and other fed LE agencies) were in a bad spot. The ATF was low man on the totem pole


The ATF got word of Koresh's group, and saw their meal ticket. They needed to go in, set an example, do the most scariest thing a gov't agency can do, which is to justify it's existence.

They trumped up nonsensical charges of child abuse to obtain warrants, as well as bogus charges of NFA violations.

Operation showtime (they actually called it this), and news crews from all over were invited

Your much beloved federal gov't, went in, and because the idiots were totally incompetent, they fucked up the first wave, had to bring in the FBI, then just burned the place down.

THEN, as the ashes were still hot, destroyed evidence, took pictures of people posing in the ashes, and even raised their flag.

This was another disaster for fed LEO, until the OKC bombings took place

 

[zackmars]

No. Bureaucrats and scene commanders should have seen prison

Thats a just punishment for burning how many kids alive again?

The problem with statism is that the government has no desire to regulate itself. It will just strip your rights, and slaughter you.

 

[PinnedandRecessed]

 

[fork3]

View attachment 333974

love that movie

 

[FNORD]

Pearls before swine, and some truly magnificent ones at that. As an aggregate they do much to justify this amazing one ring circus if only as a repository and it would amply serve to raise the consciousness of anyone properly receptive and worthy.

But as troll fodder, a waste.

 

[Wiliamr]

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America​

hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —

 

[toddnjoyce]

Donde esta mi horcita?

 

[Sasquatch]

Lon Horiuchi should have stood trial for murder, but AG Janet Reno pretty much gave him immunity for those deaths.

Lon Horiuchi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Then at some point later, he was also acting as sniper in the Waco fiasco.

I don’t think the officers themselves are responsible. The heads of agencies in the bureaucracies and maybe even the scene commanders, should have got prison sentences, but not the average officer

No - ATF agents are human beings - they are supposed to have brains and be able to judge circumstances, and be able to make proper decisions. They are 100% responsible for their actions, because no one is putting a gun to their heads and telling them they MUST follow orders. It is the duty of every law enforcement officer or member of the armed forces NOT to follow illegal orders. Killing an UNARMED woman, holding her baby, shooting a 14 year old boy in the back - that's murder. My views on the death penalty have changed from pro-death penalty to mostly against it - but the evidence of Lon Horiuchi's actions has been quite clear - the motherfucker even got commendations for his actions at Ruby Ridge - that son of a bitch should swing by the neck and be left for the turkey vultures to pick clean. Doesn't deserve a burial or even be cremated.

David Chipman, the pedophile-in-chief's former pick for ATF director posed for photos on the still hot ashes of the Waco disaster. He too, and every other "law enforcement officer" there that day should join Horiuchi in the gallows. They murdered women and children and conspired to frame innocent people.

That doesn't excuse the superiors who handed the orders down - they should all hang by the neck as well right up to the very tip top of the food chain - but they won't.

Any government official ordering the killing of an innocent citizen should face summary execution themselves. They are traitors to the Constitution and to the principles our nation was founded on. Tyrants deserve no quarter. Those who would so easily kill the innocent deserve no quarter.

 

[Tnhawk]

 

[candcallen]

My principal is loyalty to the us federal government, not an unelected crown

I have Taken 3 oaths in my life. All 3 were started with "Support and defend the CONSTITUTION of the united states" and a couple added the state constitution and laws derived there from.....paraphrased. They all mention enemies both foreign and domestic for a reason.

No oath demands loyalty to a Government. And they expect you to follow LEGAL orders of those Appointed above you. BASED ON WHAT YOU SWORE THE OATH TO.

Now uning context clues and history, why do you think you would be swearing and oath to the constitution and defending it from enemies both foreign and domestic?

Play Jeopardy music....

Because the founders just shed tyranny from a strong central government. Lead by a King, a dictator.

So rethink you loyalty in the proper context.

Please.

 

[General Zod]

I don’t think the officers themselves are responsible. The heads of agencies in the bureaucracies and maybe even the scene commanders, should have got prison sentences, but not the average officer

Wrong. So wrong. The agents involved chose to pull the trigger on a retreating teenager and on an unarmed woman holding a baby. The agency heads and on-site commanders should face consequences for running the illegal operation, but the agents who committed cold-blooded murder should have faced consequences for murder. Otherwise you give credence to the Nuremburg defense..."I vas chust folloving orders..."

 

[Axxe55]

Wrong. So wrong. The agents involved chose to pull the trigger on a retreating teenager and on an unarmed woman holding a baby. The agency heads and on-site commanders should face consequences for running the illegal operation, but the agents who committed cold-blooded murder should have faced consequences for murder. Otherwise you give credence to the Nuremburg defense..."I vas chust folloving orders..."

I doubt he has read any of the history of the Nuremburg Trials.

Nuremberg trials - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Subsequent Nuremberg trials - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[General Zod]

I doubt he has read any of the history of the Nuremburg Trials.

Trying to broaden the kid's horizons. Maybe supply him with half a fucking clue...

But you're probably right.

 

[Axxe55]

Trying to broaden the kid's horizons. Maybe supply him with half a fucking clue...

But you're probably right.

After readin all of his replies here and elsewhere, I fear the indoctrination is way too deep. Nothing short of a full-on brain transplant would broaden his horizons.

Also any of his seemingly changes in direction are simply to try and appease us, rather than actually having thought about the information provided.

 

[Tnhawk]

I'd guess he is not familiar with Lt Calley and the My Lai massacre on March 16,1968

 

[Axxe55]

I'd guess he is not familiar with Lt Calley and the My Lai massacre on March 16,1968

Doubtful.