Was asked for my papers

[Bithabus]

Not at all. Having discussed this thread over breakfast with the President and the VP of SAGC this very morning, before we went out to the Rocky Mountain 3-Gun Day One, the point I was ever so poorly trying to make is that people can make a difference. All it took for SAGC to remove the "no full auto, no cans" on the range rules was a willingness to run for office, and the ability to put up with the Fuddites while rebuilding a crumbling infrastructure to a 500 yard range with enough bays to host the USPSA Nationals and national-level 3-Gun championships.

Along the way (of buying dozers, belly scrapers, dump trucks, and assorted goodies from the very streets of Tonka-toy heaven), we killed the Fudd rules of "no," but with the caveat that we would not allow illegal activity (pertaining to NFA items) on the range, as we already do not allow meth to be cooked or goats to be cornholed (naaaaay means naaaaaay). Is the range a law enforcement agency? No, of course not. But as both private citizens and as officials of SAGC, if we suspect a crime may be occurring we can and will call the local Johnny Law. Who, since they also use the range, and use us as trainers, are very interested in keeping the range open.

Make any money out of SAGC as a ClassIII by...not allowing illegal NFA items to be used on a private club? Wow, good one...next someone will ask for my last ten years of tax returns because "someone" heard that I didn't pay taxes while running Bain Capital...oh, wait, same thought different verse.

If you want to build your own NFA stuff, get a license. Sixty five bucks every three years for a FFL 07, plus $500 per year for the SOT. Then you can build whatever you want...legally...but you still have to carry paper on each and every item!

If you want to shoot anything, legal or not, build your own range.

My bottom line, here at the bottom (note: No reference to goats, bottoms or otherwise): The NFA rules suck. They are horrible rules, in my opinion directly in violation of the US Constitution, and should be thrown out. We can't do that from here at the bottom of the suck-pool. We have to drain the pool, elect Americans to office and not Euro-trash (or adopted Indonesian-trash) to run the country long enough to return it to what it was intended (but rarely actually was). However, if we don't want to play "hide the salami" with Big Bubba for ten long at Club Fed, we have to play by the rules. Such as they are, not as we wish them to be.

Alex

Yes, we have to play by the rules. But what rule requires range owners to check to see if their customer's guns are legally owned? What civil or criminal liability could they incur?

 

[Tejano Scott]

Not at all. Having discussed this thread over breakfast with the President and the VP of SAGC this very morning, before we went out to the Rocky Mountain 3-Gun Day One, the point I was ever so poorly trying to make is that people can make a difference. All it took for SAGC to remove the "no full auto, no cans" on the range rules was a willingness to run for office, and the ability to put up with the Fuddites while rebuilding a crumbling infrastructure to a 500 yard range with enough bays to host the USPSA Nationals and national-level 3-Gun championships.

Along the way (of buying dozers, belly scrapers, dump trucks, and assorted goodies from the very streets of Tonka-toy heaven), we killed the Fudd rules of "no," but with the caveat that we would not allow illegal activity (pertaining to NFA items) on the range, as we already do not allow meth to be cooked or goats to be cornholed (naaaaay means naaaaaay). Is the range a law enforcement agency? No, of course not. But as both private citizens and as officials of SAGC, if we suspect a crime may be occurring we can and will call the local Johnny Law. Who, since they also use the range, and use us as trainers, are very interested in keeping the range open.

Make any money out of SAGC as a ClassIII by...not allowing illegal NFA items to be used on a private club? Wow, good one...next someone will ask for my last ten years of tax returns because "someone" heard that I didn't pay taxes while running Bain Capital...oh, wait, same thought different verse.

If you want to build your own NFA stuff, get a license. Sixty five bucks every three years for a FFL 07, plus $500 per year for the SOT. Then you can build whatever you want...legally...but you still have to carry paper on each and every item!

If you want to shoot anything, legal or not, build your own range.

My bottom line, here at the bottom (note: No reference to goats, bottoms or otherwise): The NFA rules suck. They are horrible rules, in my opinion directly in violation of the US Constitution, and should be thrown out. We can't do that from here at the bottom of the suck-pool. We have to drain the pool, elect Americans to office and not Euro-trash (or adopted Indonesian-trash) to run the country long enough to return it to what it was intended (but rarely actually was). However, if we don't want to play "hide the salami" with Big Bubba for ten long at Club Fed, we have to play by the rules. Such as they are, not as we wish them to be.

Alex

Great post. I think we can all agree the NFA rules suck and naaaaay means naaaaaay!

 

[Tejano Scott]

Yes, we have to play by the rules. But what rule requires range owners to check to see if their customer's guns are legally owned? What civil or criminal liability could they incur?

There are none. It's abundantly obvious we've gone from raping goats to beating dead horses. Lol

 

[wakal]

The term usually used is "accessory" as in "accessory to anal rape of dead goats" or a "accessory to the possession of a unregistered item subject to NFA".

Or "accessory to beating a dead horse."

If you want to shoot your illegal toys, get your own range.

If you want to build your own toys, get your own license.

If you have a tax stamp item and a range officer asks to see it, either let them see it (and no, I don't condone taking their shit, should they choose to display a negative attitude toward perfectly legal toys) or leave. But don't be surprised if Johnny Law is waiting for you at the end of the range road if you drive off.

Life is hard, get a helmet or man up


Alex

 

[Tejano Scott]

As an attorney it drives me a little nutty seeing people throw around terms that do not apply. There is no accessory criminal liability in this instance(for range owners, not goat rapers). Trust me.


ETA: With 1 caveat- Unless the Range Owner assisted the person in acquiring the illegal item or sold it to them personally.

 

[macshooter]

My bottom line, here at the bottom (note: No reference to goats, bottoms or otherwise): The NFA rules suck. They are horrible rules, in my opinion directly in violation of the US Constitution, and should be thrown out. We can't do that from here at the bottom of the suck-pool. We have to drain the pool, elect Americans to office and not Euro-trash (or adopted Indonesian-trash) to run the country long enough to return it to what it was intended (but rarely actually was). However, if we don't want to play "hide the salami" with Big Bubba for ten long at Club Fed, we have to play by the rules. Such as they are, not as we wish them to be.

Alex

Hear, Hear!

I don't think it would bother me if a range guy asked to see my stamps. Now if he did it rude like, I would pack my sh*t and leave and never darken his door again. Can't expect those guys to know the law very well, I would not a blame an average guy for wanting to make sure something illegal was not going on in his establishment. I may not have to show my stamps, but then, he doesn't have to let me use his range either. Seems like the situation can be handled in an agreeable manner. After all there are not a lot of folks out there that know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to NFA. It's pretty obscure and stupid knowledge that takes some effort to acquire.

 

[stdreb27]

At this point, I'm not surprised, gun owners/dealers are in the cross hairs... It may be hysteria, but it is justified hysteria...

 

[Bithabus]

The term usually used is "accessory" as in "accessory to anal rape of dead goats" or a "accessory to the possession of a unregistered item subject to NFA".

That isn't a thing. We're assuming the range owner has no idea that an item is illegal, and had no hand in making or acquiring it. That would be like you being arrested as an accessory to a rape of a goat in Austin which you had no knowledge of and no hand in.

If you want to shoot your illegal toys, get your own range.

Nobody is condoning illegal activity. All my title 2 shit is registered.

If you want to build your own toys, get your own license.

I know.

If you have a tax stamp item and a range officer asks to see it, either let them see it (and no, I don't condone taking their shit, should they choose to display a negative attitude toward perfectly legal toys) or leave.

I agree.

But don't be surprised if Johnny Law is waiting for you at the end of the range road if you drive off.

I would be a bit surprised.

 

[bigjohn]

When an RO asks to see my papers, I ask to see his badge. It usually doesnt go any further than that.

 

[wakal]

When an RO asks to see my papers, I ask to see his badge

And at SAGC, then we ask you to leave. And call the Sheriff's office. Nothing but a thing.

Lawyer or not, when the nice officer rolls you up for whatever made up charge they want to apply, no matter what happens after that you get to go for a ride FIRST. And the local news carries the story about how the range officials were rolled up for "omg, machine guns!" Not a good thing...right or wrong.

Yes, I think it is wrong. And yes, that is the world we live in, no matter how much we all whine like little bitches about it



Alex

 

[ZX9RCAM]

There maybe be some different stuff from bho's atf on this lately. I talked to a employee of Carters Country today briefly about it. He said there is a huge reason, but did not have time to elaborate. Hopefully later this evening I will be able to ask him more about it and get the details, but it could be due to a recent interpretation by the ATF. He also stated that the ATF has changed the way you fill out a 4473, also recently. Don't know what they could change.

I have used my cans at Carters many times & have never been asked to see any paperwork, of course this was a long time ago & I used to go there all the time.

 

[Tejano Scott]

And at SAGC, then we ask you to leave. And call the Sheriff's office. Nothing but a thing.

Lawyer or not, when the nice officer rolls you up for whatever made up charge they want to apply, no matter what happens after that you get to go for a ride FIRST. And the local news carries the story about how the range officials were rolled up for "omg, machine guns!" Not a good thing...right or wrong.

Yes, I think it is wrong. And yes, that is the world we live in, no matter how much we all whine like little bitches about it



Alex

You call the cops on law abiding citizens who choose not to show you their paperwork since they have no obligation? Damn, I don't want to put on my righteous indignation hat, but that is a really despicable thing to do(unless you were convinced they were illegal). Shocking to hear this from a NFA dealer.

 

[winchster]

You call the cops on law abiding citizens who choose not to show you their paperwork since they have no obligation? Damn, I don't want to put on my righteous indignation hat, but that is a really despicable thing to do(unless you were convinced they were illegal). Shocking to hear this from a NFA dealer.

Exactly. Only thing to add would be, guess I know now that I won't ever darken that doorstep.

 

[Mike D Texas]

And at SAGC, then we ask you to leave. And call the Sheriff's office. Nothing but a thing.

Lawyer or not, when the nice officer rolls you up for whatever made up charge they want to apply, no matter what happens after that you get to go for a ride FIRST. And the local news carries the story about how the range officials were rolled up for "omg, machine guns!" Not a good thing...right or wrong.

Yes, I think it is wrong. And yes, that is the world we live in, no matter how much we all whine like little bitches about it



Alex

And it will continue to be wrong as long as we allow it to be and folks like you are the problem, not the solution.


Sent from iPhone/Tapatalk

 

[rachilders]

Never been asked for any paperwork, other than my membership card, in the ten years I've been going to our local range. OTOH, a PRIVATE gun range (as in not owned by the city/state/county/etc) can set it's own rules. As long as the club rules are available for everyone to read, there should be no discussion as to what's "legal" or not. IOW, a RO or other club officer has a question concerning a firearm being shot at their range. If it's in the club rules that an official of the club can ask to check your weapon, he can request that you allow him to do so. If you refuse, he can ask you to put it away or leave the clubs property. If you refuse, you can be arrested for trespassing. Like it or not, that's how it works. Trying to be a jailhouse lawyer and getting into the club's face about your 2A rights or contradicting interpretations of NFA regs will just make an inconvenient situation into a confrontation that the club will win.


FWIW, if you own a class III weapon, you are required to have a stamp from the BATF. Keep a copy of the stamp with the weapon and there shouldn't be a problem with having a Class III item in public. Still, if you don't think the rules a local club have are fair to NFA owners, do as others have suggested and either go to another range or become active in your club as an officer and lobby to change the rules.


BTW, here's my own SBR. I frequently shot it at our local range and there's no problem with using NFA weapons there. The biggest question I ever got is whether it's a pistol or a rifle when I have the buttstock removed and if I should use the pistol or rifle section of the range.

 

[Tejano Scott]

As long as the club rules are available for everyone to read, there should be no discussion as to what's "legal" or not. IOW, a RO or other club officer has a question concerning a firearm being shot at their range. If it's in the club rules that an official of the club can ask to check your weapon, he can request that you allow him to do so. If you refuse, he can ask you to put it away or leave the clubs property. If you refuse, you can be arrested for trespassing. Like it or not, that's how it works. Trying to be a jailhouse lawyer and getting into the club's face about your 2A rights or contradicting interpretations of NFA regs will just make an inconvenient situation into a confrontation that the club will win.

I just want to clarify your post. Are you claiming you can be arrested for trespass for refusing to show your NFA Paperwork? If so, you're wrong. Are you saying you can be arrested for trespass for failing to leave the range after being asked to leave? Partially wrong. They would have to legally warn you off the property first. Or are you saying you can be arrested for trespass in some other way?

As for dealing with "clubs" vs. "ranges" in this debate, I do agree that if you joined a club that has these rules and you are a NFA guy, you basically screwed yourself. But a public range to me is in a different boat. Just my opinion.

 

[gladi8r]

And at SAGC, then we ask you to leave. And call the Sheriff's office. Nothing but a thing.

Lawyer or not, when the nice officer rolls you up for whatever made up charge they want to apply, no matter what happens after that you get to go for a ride FIRST. And the local news carries the story about how the range officials were rolled up for "omg, machine guns!" Not a good thing...right or wrong.

Yes, I think it is wrong. And yes, that is the world we live in, no matter how much we all whine like little bitches about it



Alex

Wowsers Alex this is shocking. Calling cops on people who refuse to show you a stamp for a legally built or obtained firearm. Little harsh brother don't ya think.

 

[rachilders]

I was saying if you're asked to leave a clubs property - whatever the reason - by an official or employee of the club and you refuse, you can be arrested for trespass and it may or may not involve showing your NFA paperwork. It's no different than being told to leave a grocery store over arguing with a clerk because you considered an item priced too high. Refuse to leave when asked by the manager and you can/will be arrested or escorted off the property by an LEO. Also, while there is a difference between "club" property and the "range", for general purposes they are the same if you are told to leave the area by a club/range official. As for a range run by a government agency, they can still set rules for use of the range that are MORE stringent than what the law requires as long as they aren't discriminatory based on sex/minority status/religion/etc. and don't break the law in some way. I've had occasion to use the local police range now and again and the rules for LEO's and and non LEO guests are not the same.

 

[itchin]

If I agree with Alex, do I get to go shoot his awesome guns at his range?

 

[Keri-Mike]

Am I a complete idiot? What on earth is a "stamp"??? I've never been asked for anything, not even my CHL. I've never even heard reference to something called a "stamp". ? - Keri