Was asked for my papers

[Dredge]

Funny thing is...dude at CC proceeded to tell me how he also examined weapons there to see if the barrels were properly threaded. He said he had seen compensators blown off the end of guns.....
How's anybody gonna eyeball a barrel and spec something out like that??? That's one hell of an "eye-chrometer". The comps flying off at the range? Nope.....

 

[Tejano Scott]

It is a liability issue, nothing personal.

How is it a liability issue? There's no criminal liability I am aware of(even if they knowingly allowed people with unregistered NFA Items to shoot). As for civil liability, the only thing I could even remotely see could be if someone started shooting people at the range. But how are NFA items exposing Range Owners to any more civil risk than non NFA items? As an attorney, I am having a tough time grasping this.

 

[Renegade]

It's not the range's job to enforce federal firearms law. Just like it's not their job to verify you are able to legally own a gun before you shoot. They face no liability IMO for any "ATF spot checks". There is no CFR or Statute I am aware of that requires ranges to verify proper possession of NFA items. So that begs the question- if there's no law on the books requiring them to check, then why the hell are they asking?

Exactly. They check to make sure you have a stamp, but do not check to see if you are a felon? Do they check to see if you are using armor piercing ammo? No? How about making sure you have not obliterated the4 SN on the gun? No? So why the hard-on for NFA?

I was only asked once, years ago at Backwoods Traps. I was shooting a silenced R700, and accidentally showed my M16 Form. He said OK and gave it back. Moron. A month before that, I was shooting a integral 10/22, I had electronic muffs (not everyone was shooting suppressed), I heard same guy tell another RO it was a bull barrel and I was shooting CBs, that is why it was so quiet.

 

[Renegade]

San Angelo Gun Club Range Officers and Board Members will ask, as will local LE, if they see it at the SAGC. Usually it goes "...badge or tax stamp? And what is that, and what do you think of it..."

If you don't respond with either, or pop an attitude, you get to leave. It is a liability issue, nothing personal. And this is coming from a guy with belt fed crap and a lot of exotics


Alex

My lawfully correct answer is "none of the above".

Also, there is no liability at all. Not even sure what they would be liable for.

 

[Tejano Scott]

So why the hard-on for NFA?

You just boiled it down to the real issue... Why? Is it because its taking off like wildfire? Is there even one example of ATF Spot check or raiding a gun range for unregistered NFA items? A quick google search reveals nothing except for ranges that also have gun stores attached.

 

[Bithabus]

Well frankly, it's just none of their damn business. Pretty soon they'll want the SN off my gun so they can run that and make sure it's not stolen. They are being stupid and uneducated(and yes, RUDE) when they ask for proof of legal ownership. They are not the enforcers of any criminal law. They just have a civil duty to keep the range safe, and asking for paperwork does nothing towards that goal. If you believe NFA items pose a safety risk, don't allow them. But don't piss off customers by showing your stupidity. Besides, anyone can print a piece of NFA paperwork off the net, a quick google search landed me this:

http://www.revenuer.com/ebay/e036911.gif


I might just print it out and keep it in my range bag for fun and show it if ever asked.

Hey Dredge, out of curiosity did the Shooters Station people just look and see a stamp? If they didn't match the NFA paperwork to the Serial Number on the item and then verify your drivers license against your trust/Form4, then what the hell is the point?

+1

I could make a fake approved form 1 or 4 in about 5 minutes. The range is playing LEO and sticking their nose in people's business. I would probably not go back if something like that happened to me.

 

[TXDARKHORSE361]

So am I the only one who clicked on this thinking I was gonna read about somebody's citizenship being questioned? In all reality though that's bs and I agree they have no right asking to see it however it's their range their rules so I guess the only thing you can do put up with it or not go back.

this is coming from a guy with belt fed crap and a lot of exotics

So uh, I'm thinking I need to become your friend, lol I am jealous sir hope they are treating you well.

 

[kabob]

Elm Fork and DFW Gun in Dallas both asked to see NFA stamp/paperwork when a friend and I have shot there with his cans. He doesn't care since he's required to keep the paperwork with him, anyways, and it beats the range asking us to leave the premises.

 

[txinvestigator]

There's been some range's getting shut-down lately from shooters acting up and undercover agents looking into things from what I hear. So they may just be aware of that, and trying to watch thier backs. The way I see it-if you're going to use thier range, then why not show the paper on request just to be nice? It ain't hurting anyone, and it's letting them focus on someone else rather than worry about you.

Since ranges are not regulated by any agency above the city level, how could one be shut down for a customer "acting up", whatever that means.

That said, most businesses do not want illegal activities on the premises. Asking to see NFA paperwork is not unreasonable.

 

[wakal]

The SAGC cannot allow illegal activity on their property. It took a change to the bylaws (spearheaded by Dreadnaught Industries folks, oddly enough) to lift the outright ban on full auto and silenced toys that had been in place over fifty years of Elmer Fuddites running the club.

If you don't like having bona fide club staff asking to verify your status, then go somewhere else. SAGC is not going to take the fall for people cooking meth on the property, raping goats, or running illegal guns (among other 'not gonna do it' items, of course). If you don't like it, go build and insure your very own range and do whatever you want...until you get shut down for allowing illegal activity on your property

This isn't rocket science, and it isn't personal, but until we can elect (heh) actual Americans to control of this left-lurching hole that used to be America, we are stuck with the laws (and the crazy enforcement of same) that we have.


Alex

 

[Tejano Scott]

The SAGC cannot allow illegal activity on their property. It took a change to the bylaws (spearheaded by Dreadnaught Industries folks, oddly enough) to lift the outright ban on full auto and silenced toys that had been in place over fifty years of Elmer Fuddites running the club.

If you don't like having bona fide club staff asking to verify your status, then go somewhere else. SAGC is not going to take the fall for people cooking meth on the property, raping goats, or running illegal guns (among other 'not gonna do it' items, of course). If you don't like it, go build and insure your very own range and do whatever you want...until you get shut down for allowing illegal activity on your property

This isn't rocket science, and it isn't personal, but until we can elect (heh) actual Americans to control of this left-lurching hole that used to be America, we are stuck with the laws (and the crazy enforcement of same) that we have.


Alex

No offense, if it isn't rocket science then tell me what criminal laws the Range is required to enforce. It's a shame hearing this kind of "give up and take it" talk from someone who actually is a Class 3 dealer. Guess as long as it doesn't impact your bottom line we can take the Jeremy Alcede approach and "let them have it". And for you to compare legal NFA ownership to Cooking Meth and Raping Goats is preposterous and shows the degree of care you have about the industry IMO. So if they are concerned about "running illegal guns" then why aren't they checking Serial Numbers and doing background checks, asking to verify you are old enough to own a gun, etc? I can answer that question for you- it's because it's so socially unacceptable the gun crowd would backlash in upheaval. Well get on board, b/c this thread and our attitudes are the beginning of that upheaval as it relates to NFA weapons. You can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

 

[itchin]

LOL. Raping goats. :-)

 

[Tejano Scott]

Yeah, legal possession of NFA weapons at a range is similar to raping goats and cooking meth. I can believe a member would say that, but it shocks me to hear this attitude from a Class 3 dealer.

 

[Renegade]

The SAGC cannot allow illegal activity on their property. It took a change to the bylaws (spearheaded by Dreadnaught Industries folks, oddly enough) to lift the outright ban on full auto and silenced toys that had been in place over fifty years of Elmer Fuddites running the club.

If you don't like having bona fide club staff asking to verify your status, then go somewhere else. SAGC is not going to take the fall for people cooking meth on the property, raping goats, or running illegal guns (among other 'not gonna do it' items, of course). If you don't like it, go build and insure your very own range and do whatever you want...until you get shut down for allowing illegal activity on your property

This isn't rocket science, and it isn't personal, but until we can elect (heh) actual Americans to control of this left-lurching hole that used to be America, we are stuck with the laws (and the crazy enforcement of same) that we have.


Alex

So how do they verify there are no felons in possession, no DV violators, mental cases, illegals, etc? These are the most common types of firearms violations, so they must already have a plan in place right?

 

[Tejano Scott]

Much less, how do they determine you're not a goat raping meth chef?

 

[Sugar Land]

Walter White would be pissed.

 

[biglucky]

Yeah, legal possession of NFA weapons at a range is similar to raping goats and cooking meth. I can believe a member would say that, but it shocks me to hear this attitude from a Class 3 dealer.

I am pretty sure that Alex was referring to ILLEGAL possession of NFA items, not legal possession. It is quite easy for a range to validate legal possession and if they want to do that it is their right, it is their range after all.

All the EMORAGE about range owners wanting to do what they can to ensure that nobody is running illegal guns on their property really makes my head spin. I have been asked at numerous ranges for my stamps, at which point I took out the copies that I have in every bag that might ever travel to the range with me and provide them. Have had a few ROs validate the Serial numbers match, but usually just showing the stamp is sufficient.

If you want to be pissed about something be pissed about the fact that NFA exists. Trying to compare Alex's discussion about the rules at the San Angelo Gun Club to the asshattery of the Tactical Firearms guy is ludicrous. I am betting that if it was the Dreadnaught Industries range, the rules might be a bit different, but it isn't. The Austin Rifle Club still does not allow anything full auto and will not allow people like Jeff Gonzalez to host classes there just because they think that might be a gateway to full auto.... that is just the way lots of ranges, run by (and I love this term Alex) Elmer Fuddites roll....

Chill out y'all. I love a good trolling as much as the next guy but this is really just silly.

 

[Tejano Scott]

I normally agree with most of your posts Big Lucky(I def agree with your taste in firearms), but I do not on this one. Clearly I understand the "it's their range and their rules" mentality. Fine, I guess that's true of any business and in the end I can make a decision as to whether or not to support them. But it still begs the questions that NO ONE can(or will attempt) to answer:

1. Why the hard on for NFA?
2. What, if any, legal obligation does the range have to verify legal ownership of firearms?
3. Why do they not verify non-NFA items then?
4. Have you ever heard of even one range getting in trouble for allowing someone to shoot an NFA weapon that had no stamp?

In all due respect, telling people to "accept it" or "give in" is exactly what Jeremy Alcede meant when he said "just give it to them". Call it EMORAGE, I call it being irresponsible with our rights. And while I get your point of "be pissed that NFA exists", I believe NFA will continue to exist until we make these old Elmer Fuddites(as you call them) realize the CORRECT answers to the 4 questions I asked above.

I'm not trying to attack/troll anyone. But I think comparing (even the illegal) possession of NFA items with goat raping and meth cheffing is ridiculous. Ranges don't ask people to show proof of legal ownership of nonNFA items because they know people in the gun community won't stand for it. So why do we stand for this, refresh my memory? O right, their range their rules. Stupidity.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

LOL. Raping goats. :-)

It's only rape if they say "naaaaaah!"

 

[Renegade]

It is quite easy for a range to validate legal possession and if they want to do that it is their right, it is their range after all.

No it is not easy, in fact it is impossible legally and they have no legal right to validate legal possession, nor would BATFE help them in any way.

As Bithabus says, 5 minutes with a Paint program and anyone can have a valid looking form.