Was asked for my papers

[biglucky]

Scott,

While I appreciate your righteous indignation, I do think it is unfounded.

People go after NFA because it is low hanging fruit.

Anyway, I just think that comparing anything in this conversation to that Alcede guy is over the top. Just sayin....

 

[biglucky]

It's only rape if they say "naaaaaah!"

Best post in this whole thread....

 

[Tejano Scott]

Scott,

While I appreciate your righteous indignation, I do think it is unfounded.

People go after NFA because it is low hanging fruit.

Anyway, I just think that comparing anything in this conversation to that Alcede guy is over the top. Just sayin....

Haha, no righteous indignation here, just voicing my opinion on a public message board. I feel I've been very civil about it, even though I feel pretty strongly about this ludicrous hypocrisy concerning NFA weapons. If you feel I unfairly attacked your friend, then I'm sorry. It was not my intention. And to avoid belaboring the issue, I'll spare explaining further(or subjecting anyone to further "indignation" LOL) since I feel my opinion is more than adequately explained above with no credible response.


The one thing I think we all can agree on-

Great Post Cam!

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

after all this that wasnt the reason he was white had a glazed look and mumbling sumtin about i aint takin this no more

 

[Tejano Scott]

Huh?

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

why they asked him for his papers

 

[FlashBang]

why they asked him for his papers

Maybe they were out and wanted to twist one up.....

 

[biglucky]

Haha, no righteous indignation here, just voicing my opinion on a public message board. I feel I've been very civil about it, even though I feel pretty strongly about this ludicrous hypocrisy concerning NFA weapons. If you feel I unfairly attacked your friend, then I'm sorry. It was not my intention. And to avoid belaboring the issue, I'll spare explaining further(or subjecting anyone to further "indignation" LOL) since I feel my opinion is more than adequately explained above with no credible response.


The one thing I think we all can agree on-

Great Post Cam!

Just ribbin ya at this point.. I also feel that my point was quite adequately explained with no credible response..

 

[ii]

My educated guess as to why ranges ask folks for proof is due to the specific language codified in The United States Code that puts range owners at a liability of loosing their business.

18 USC § 921 Definitions (a) As used in this chapter (1) The term "person" and the term "whoever" include any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, society, or joint stock company.

26 USC § 5861 - Prohibited acts

[h=1]It shall be unlawful for any person—[/h]
(a) to engage in business as a manufacturer or importer of, or dealer in, firearms without having paid the special (occupational) tax required by section 5801 for his business or having registered as required by section 5802; or
(b) to receive or possess a firearm transferred to him in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(c) to receive or possess a firearm made in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(d) to receive or possess a firearm which is not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; or
(e) to transfer a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(f) to make a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter; or
(j) to transport, deliver, or receive any firearm in interstate commerce which has not been registered as required by this chapter; or
(k) to receive or possess a firearm which has been imported or brought into the United States in violation of section 5844; or
(l) to make, or cause the making of, a false entry on any application, return, or record required by this chapter, knowing such entry to be false.

26 USC Chapter 53, Subchapter D - Penalties and Forfeitures
Any person who violates or fails to comply with any provisions of this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000, or be imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(a) Laws applicableAny firearm involved in any violation of the provisions of this chapter shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture, and (except as provided in subsection (b)) all the provisions of internal revenue laws relating to searches, seizures, and forfeitures of unstamped articles are extended to and made to apply to the articles taxed under this chapter, and the persons to whom this chapter applies.

(b) DisposalIn the case of the forfeiture of any firearm by reason of a violation of this chapter, no notice of public sale shall be required; no such firearm shall be sold at a public sale; if such firearm is forfeited for a violation of this chapter and there is no remission or mitigation of forfeiture thereof, it shall be delivered by the Secretary to the Administrator of General Services, General Services Administration, who may order such firearm destroyed or may sell it to any State, or possession, or political subdivision thereof, or at the request of the Secretary, may authorize its retention for official use of the Treasury Department, or may transfer it without charge to any executive department or independent establishment of the Government for use by it.

 

[Bithabus]

This is no different from people demanding bills of sale for FTF sales.

 

[Bithabus]

My educated guess as to why ranges ask folks for proof is due to the specific language codified in The United States Code that puts range owners at a liability of loosing their business.

18 USC § 921 Definitions (a) As used in this chapter (1) The term "person" and the term "whoever" include any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, society, or joint stock company.

26 USC § 5861 - Prohibited acts

It shall be unlawful for any person—


(a) to engage in business as a manufacturer or importer of, or dealer in, firearms without having paid the special (occupational) tax required by section 5801 for his business or having registered as required by section 5802; or
(b) to receive or possess a firearm transferred to him in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(c) to receive or possess a firearm made in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(d) to receive or possess a firearm which is not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; or
(e) to transfer a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(f) to make a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter; or
(j) to transport, deliver, or receive any firearm in interstate commerce which has not been registered as required by this chapter; or
(k) to receive or possess a firearm which has been imported or brought into the United States in violation of section 5844; or
(l) to make, or cause the making of, a false entry on any application, return, or record required by this chapter, knowing such entry to be false.

26 USC Chapter 53, Subchapter D - Penalties and Forfeitures
Any person who violates or fails to comply with any provisions of this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000, or be imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(a) Laws applicableAny firearm involved in any violation of the provisions of this chapter shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture, and (except as provided in subsection (b)) all the provisions of internal revenue laws relating to searches, seizures, and forfeitures of unstamped articles are extended to and made to apply to the articles taxed under this chapter, and the persons to whom this chapter applies.

(b) DisposalIn the case of the forfeiture of any firearm by reason of a violation of this chapter, no notice of public sale shall be required; no such firearm shall be sold at a public sale; if such firearm is forfeited for a violation of this chapter and there is no remission or mitigation of forfeiture thereof, it shall be delivered by the Secretary to the Administrator of General Services, General Services Administration, who may order such firearm destroyed or may sell it to any State, or possession, or political subdivision thereof, or at the request of the Secretary, may authorize its retention for official use of the Treasury Department, or may transfer it without charge to any executive department or independent establishment of the Government for use by it.

That doesn't say anything about a range owner losing his business. That says the person with the unregistered firearm will lose the firearm.

 

[ii]

That doesn't say anything about a range owner losing his business. That says the person with the unregistered firearm will lose the firearm.

He wont loose his business directly correct however when the BATFE make a case against the business owner for facilitating illegal activity on premise he will for sure be out of business when he has to hire a team of attorneys to get out of trouble.

The federal government has very high conviction rates http://www.justice.gov/usao/reading_room/reports/asr2010/10statrpt.pdf

 

[Bithabus]

He wont loose his business correct however when the BATFE make a case against the business owner for facilitating illegal activity on premise he will for sure be out of business when he has to hire a team of attorneys to get out of trouble.

This is ignorance and hysteria.

 

[Renegade]

My educated guess as to why ranges ask folks for proof is due to the specific language codified in The United States Code that puts range owners at a liability of loosing their business.

18 USC § 921 Definitions (a) As used in this chapter (1) The term "person" and the term "whoever" include any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, society, or joint stock company.

26 USC § 5861 - Prohibited acts

It shall be unlawful for any person—


(a) to engage in business as a manufacturer or importer of, or dealer in, firearms without having paid the special (occupational) tax required by section 5801 for his business or having registered as required by section 5802; or
(b) to receive or possess a firearm transferred to him in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(c) to receive or possess a firearm made in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(d) to receive or possess a firearm which is not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; or
(e) to transfer a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(f) to make a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter; or
(j) to transport, deliver, or receive any firearm in interstate commerce which has not been registered as required by this chapter; or
(k) to receive or possess a firearm which has been imported or brought into the United States in violation of section 5844; or
(l) to make, or cause the making of, a false entry on any application, return, or record required by this chapter, knowing such entry to be false.

26 USC Chapter 53, Subchapter D - Penalties and Forfeitures
Any person who violates or fails to comply with any provisions of this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000, or be imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(a) Laws applicableAny firearm involved in any violation of the provisions of this chapter shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture, and (except as provided in subsection (b)) all the provisions of internal revenue laws relating to searches, seizures, and forfeitures of unstamped articles are extended to and made to apply to the articles taxed under this chapter, and the persons to whom this chapter applies.

(b) DisposalIn the case of the forfeiture of any firearm by reason of a violation of this chapter, no notice of public sale shall be required; no such firearm shall be sold at a public sale; if such firearm is forfeited for a violation of this chapter and there is no remission or mitigation of forfeiture thereof, it shall be delivered by the Secretary to the Administrator of General Services, General Services Administration, who may order such firearm destroyed or may sell it to any State, or possession, or political subdivision thereof, or at the request of the Secretary, may authorize its retention for official use of the Treasury Department, or may transfer it without charge to any executive department or independent establishment of the Government for use by it.

This has nothing to do with the liability.

 

[ii]

This is ignorance and hysteria.

One man's opinion.

 

[Renegade]

He wont loose his business directly correct however when the BATFE make a case against the business owner for facilitating illegal activity on premise he will for sure be out of business when he has to hire a team of attorneys to get out of trouble.

The federal government has very high conviction rates http://www.justice.gov/usao/reading_room/reports/asr2010/10statrpt.pdf

You really do not know what you are talking about. BATFE has no jurisdiction with local ranges.

 

[Acera]

There maybe be some different stuff from bho's atf on this lately. I talked to a employee of Carters Country today briefly about it. He said there is a huge reason, but did not have time to elaborate. Hopefully later this evening I will be able to ask him more about it and get the details, but it could be due to a recent interpretation by the ATF. He also stated that the ATF has changed the way you fill out a 4473, also recently. Don't know what they could change.

 

[Bithabus]

One man's opinion.

"Facilitating illegal activity" because someone at your range (unbeknownst to you) has an unregistered firearm? Come on.

 

[Renegade]

He also stated that the ATF has changed the way you fill out a 4473, also recently. Don't know what they could change.

No they did not. They just issued a new 4473 to meet requirements from DOJ Legal Counsel. Been known for months it was coming.

 

[ii]

You really do not know what you are talking about. BATFE has no jurisdiction with local ranges.

One man's opinion.

Jurisdiction
The local range no.
Firearms used at the range Yes.
The "person" BATFE wants to name in an indictment (range owner) maybe Yes maybe No.