Why The .45ACP?

[Se7en62]

I left the .45 in favor of high capacity 9mm, after running handgun drills and finding I was constantly caught in a reload with my 1911.

It's a principle of plausability: Will I get stressed in a high stress situation? Yes. Does that impact accuracy? Yes. Therefore, it's only practical to apply the notion that more rounds in the mag means more time in the fight and a better chance of impacting a major artery or vital organ in an aggressor.

The other arguments between the rounds are mostly negligable.

Yes, there are frames out there that are high-capacity .45's, but I'm a thinly built guy and can hardly conceal a standard frame 9mm, much less a double stacked 1911 or FNC.

 

[Captain]

I have solved the capacity problem of the 1911. I now Cary 2 of them.

sent from a Galaxy far away

 

[cbigclarke]

I knew you were Capitan for a reason

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[oldag]

I left the .45 in favor of high capacity 9mm, after running handgun drills and finding I was constantly caught in a reload with my 1911.

It's a principle of plausability: Will I get stressed in a high stress situation? Yes. Does that impact accuracy? Yes. Therefore, it's only practical to apply the notion that more rounds in the mag means more time in the fight and a better chance of impacting a major artery or vital organ in an aggressor.

The other arguments between the rounds are mostly negligable.

Yes, there are frames out there that are high-capacity .45's, but I'm a thinly built guy and can hardly conceal a standard frame 9mm, much less a double stacked 1911 or FNC.

Most of those drills do not reflect reality.

Overwhelming majority of the incidents involve just a couple of shots. If I need more than eight, then either I will be able to get the heck out of there or I will have a second to reload.

 

[bignic83]

Older and wiser now, SD ammo has come a long way and it seems like 9mm makes more sense.

That said, the reason why I originally went with .45 ACP for my HD gun some years ago was that I simply had more confidence in it.

Also, for ammo on hand it probably is what I prefer if I didn't know with certainty I'd be able to get JHP.

There are some places, like NJ, that actually ban civilian ownership of hollow points(!), that's definitely a time to go with .45

All said though, I've gotten over my bias and don't think of the 9mm as ineffective anymore.

JHP is not banned in NJ, just only allowed for home defense. New Jersey does suck though. So glad to be here in the great state of Texas.

 

[bignic83]

It is just time to move from New Jersey.....

I did, and almost everyone i know is considering it. There is actually a topic on my old NJ Guns Forum on "when are you leaving NJ".

 

[Se7en62]

Most of those drills do not reflect reality.

Overwhelming majority of the incidents involve just a couple of shots. If I need more than eight, then either I will be able to get the heck out of there or I will have a second to reload.

LOL. Sure. You have no idea what drills I'm even referring to or why I perform them, but you're right they are irrelevant regardless of content or application.

As for your "second" to reload: You would be amazed at what can occur in a second if you needed to reload. If that's a chance you're willing to take just so you can rely on shot placement under stress and stick to .45, good luck.

 

[oldag]

Shot placement???

Shot placement is more important with a 9 than a .45.

Short of highly trained and experienced professionals, no one can count on shot placement.

Your heart will be pounding so loud you can hear it in your ears. The adrenaline will be surging. Emotions will be through the roof. Anyone counting on shot placement is fooling themselves. All the more reason to use a large caliber.

Besides, there is much, much more than just the physiological aspect of stopping a human being. Many people who are shot are physically capable of continuing the fight, but psychologically unable. The shock of knowing they have been hit. The sight of their own blood. The fear. The pain. The bigger the hole, the more pain, the more bleeding.

Keep your little 9 mm. Don't let the fact that it has proven to be ineffective stop you.

 

[Jakashh]

^Lmfao @ that last line. I can't even.

 

[duckknot]

So you won't mind being used as a test dummy for 9mm then huh?

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[centexshooter]

I own one of each. Each has its niche. And I really wouldn't want to stand in front of any of them.

 

[Se7en62]

Shot placement???

Shot placement is more important with a 9 than a .45.

Short of highly trained and experienced professionals, no one can count on shot placement.

Your heart will be pounding so loud you can hear it in your ears. The adrenaline will be surging. Emotions will be through the roof. Anyone counting on shot placement is fooling themselves. All the more reason to use a large caliber.

Besides, there is much, much more than just the physiological aspect of stopping a human being. Many people who are shot are physically capable of continuing the fight, but psychologically unable. The shock of knowing they have been hit. The sight of their own blood. The fear. The pain. The bigger the hole, the more pain, the more bleeding.

Keep your little 9 mm. Don't let the fact that it has proven to be ineffective stop you.

You realize you defeated your own arguement, right?

Everything you said, supports my arguement that shot placement is effected by physiological factors of stress. If you are stressed, you will miss, if you miss, you will want more rounds in the mag before needing to reload.

Plus, where has the 9mm been proven ineffective? By the FBI in 1986? In October 2015, the FBI overturned those findings and are now in the process of ditching the .40 in favor of returning to the 9mm.

Not to mention, the Navy Seals have carried the SIG P226 9mm for 5 years. Now, after piles of research and data, they have switched to the Glock 19...still a 9mm.

Please tell me where the 9mm has been found ineffective?

 

[Jakashh]

You realize you defeated your own arguement, right?

Everything you said, supports my arguement that shot placement is effected by physiological factors of stress. If you are stressed, you will miss, if you miss, you will want more rounds in the mag before needing to reload.

Plus, where has the 9mm been proven ineffective? By the FBI in 1986? In October 2015, the FBI overturned those findings and are now in the process of ditching the .40 in favor of returning to the 9mm.

Not to mention, the Navy Seals have carried the SIG P226 9mm for 5 years. Now, after piles of research and data, they have switched to the Glock 19...still a 9mm.

Please tell me where the 9mm has been found ineffective?

 

[XinTX]

Please tell me where the 9mm has been found ineffective?

Now do I have to post this again? The pistol caliber war is OVER!

 

[oldag]

You realize you defeated your own arguement, right?

Everything you said, supports my arguement that shot placement is effected by physiological factors of stress. If you are stressed, you will miss, if you miss, you will want more rounds in the mag before needing to reload.

Plus, where has the 9mm been proven ineffective? By the FBI in 1986? In October 2015, the FBI overturned those findings and are now in the process of ditching the .40 in favor of returning to the 9mm.

Not to mention, the Navy Seals have carried the SIG P226 9mm for 5 years. Now, after piles of research and data, they have switched to the Glock 19...still a 9mm.

Please tell me where the 9mm has been found ineffective?

Overwhelming majority of citizen encounters take place at a few yards. And overwhelming majority of citizen encounters only involve 2-3 rounds at most. Please read this and comprehend. If people were missing a lot at this range, you would read that more rounds were typically involved. Again, think about that for a minute. Given the facts, my logic is sound and yours is off the mark.

Do your own research, I am not going to do everything for you. If you are openminded, you will find many examples of 9 mm hits not stopping people. You will find major LEO organizations where officers do not care for the 9 mm due to its ineffectiveness. As far as special forces, many use .45 - even when 9 mm is the "official" sidearm and they have to furnish their own .45.

Don't kid yourself. The FBI study was predetermined by bean counters who want to cut costs.

 

[txinvestigator]

Overwhelming majority of citizen encounters take place at a few yards. And overwhelming majority of citizen encounters only involve 2-3 rounds at most. Please read this and comprehend. If people were missing a lot at this range, you would read that more rounds were typically involved. Again, think about that for a minute. Given the facts, my logic is sound and yours is off the mark.

Do your own research, I am not going to do everything for you. If you are openminded, you will find many examples of 9 mm hits not stopping people. You will find major LEO organizations where officers do not care for the 9 mm due to its ineffectiveness. As far as special forces, many use .45 - even when 9 mm is the "official" sidearm and they have to furnish their own .45.

Don't kid yourself. The FBI study was predetermined by bean counters who want to cut costs.

yeaah, I think your thinking is old and outdated. I worked with a guy who took six forty-fives to the torso and lived a long, happy life afterwards. The FBI study was not "predetermined".

I trained a security guard who 2 years later came back for a renewal class. He was involved in a shooting too. He told me in the renewal class that during the shooting he heard me in his head saying "front sight, trigger press" over and over. He remembers using his sights and making center mass hits. He was facing a shotgun wielding robber. My student won.

Shot placement and penetration. Arguing calibers is for people who don't know.

 

[Army 1911]

Please tell me where the 9mm has been found ineffective?

Well the Germans lost 2 world wars with it. The same two we won with the .45 ACP.

 

[Younggun]

Lol.

I doubt handguns had very little, if any effect on the outcome of those wars.


Sent from my HAL 9000

 

[CrazedJava]

Back when I had the pleasure of regular contact with the Austin PD SWAT team I noticed they were carrying HK USP's (standard APD issue at the time was S&W 5906). I asked one of the officers if it was .45 since way back in the 90's it wasn't unusual for SWAT Teams in many cities to carry a customized 1911. His answer was that they used 9mm because they focused on shot placement as part of their training.

My old neighbor growing up was also an Austin Police Officer and carried was involved in a shooting back when he still carried the, at the time, issue S&W Model 10. He won that encounter as well.

Look, I like the .45 and I shoot the .45 but I'm not going to pretend that anything less can't be lethal.

 

[oldag]

The FBI study was not "predetermined".

Still believe in the tooth fairy as well?

I trained a security guard who 2 years later came back for a renewal class. He was involved in a shooting too. He told me in the renewal class that during the shooting he heard me in his head saying "front sight, trigger press" over and over. He remembers using his sights and making center mass hits. He was facing a shotgun wielding robber. My student won.

And that has what to do with the conversation? I know a guy who took out a Panzer with a bazooka. So what?