Video of the Tucson SWAT raid released!

[Texan2]

71 gunshots being fired at Guerena, whose gun had the safety on. He was shot 60 times .. wow.

Pound at my door, wake me up from deep slumber with wife screaming and I'll have an AR15 in hand. What % chance do I have it's the cops not some badguys?

Initial M.E. report indicates he was hit 22 times....obviously no one, even the media knows what happened. I know from first hand experience that if the media cant find anyone involved to talk on camera, they will find the shirtless, toothless trailer park dweller and ask him what he heard or saw and they will run with that, and run it as "facts".

From that video, they do look a little relaxed making entry, but they obviously had the sirens going and announced that they were the police... in broad daylight. Not much more they can do as far as that goes.

 

[M. Sage]

Pretty disturbing video. I read he was in the home with an AR-15 when they broke open the door. I wonder who fired first? Seems like a huge clusterfuck.

Marine never fired a shot, his rifle was still on safe.

Initial M.E. report indicates he was hit 22 times....obviously no one, even the media knows what happened. I know from first hand experience that if the media cant find anyone involved to talk on camera, they will find the shirtless, toothless trailer park dweller and ask him what he heard or saw and they will run with that, and run it as "facts".

From that video, they do look a little relaxed making entry, but they obviously had the sirens going and announced that they were the police... in broad daylight. Not much more they can do as far as that goes.

I'm not sure it was them announcing. You can barely hear what's being said, even though you can hear the knock at the door (and it's not like he pounded on it) clearly. The police said that they hit several houses simultaneously in the area. The shouting sounds very distant to me, I suspect it came from one of the other houses.

Even though I was watching the video and knew that the police hit their siren, my gut reaction to the sound of it was "goddamn car alarms".

 

[Texan2]

Marine never fired a shot, his rifle was still on safe.



I'm not sure it was them announcing. You can barely hear what's being said, even though you can hear the knock at the door (and it's not like he pounded on it) clearly. The police said that they hit several houses simultaneously in the area. The shouting sounds very distant to me, I suspect it came from one of the other houses.

Even though I was watching the video and knew that the police hit their siren, my gut reaction to the sound of it was "goddamn car alarms".

Its definately bad audio on some links. I watched one where you could barely hear it and another where I had to turn it down because it was so loud. Siren sounded pretty standard to me. If you can hear the knock from where the guy with the camera was...it was a pretty loud knock.
If the guy was in the entry way with an AR15 (which it seems he was) he heard what was going on. The "I didnt know it was the police" is always a weak, weak defense.

 

[M. Sage]

Its definately bad audio on some links. I watched one where you could barely hear it and another where I had to turn it down because it was so loud. Siren sounded pretty standard to me. If you can hear the knock from where the guy with the camera was...it was a pretty loud knock.
If the guy was in the entry way with an AR15 (which it seems he was) he heard what was going on. The "I didnt know it was the police" is always a weak, weak defense.

I just have a few issues that don't allow me to dismiss the argument. I've only seen one version of the video, but every site, the audio seems fine. The music in the van and the sound of the idling diesel never change volume...

Beyond the question of why they did a SWAT raid on the guy in the first place, my issues are:

If he's the criminal they claim, he really had these guys dead to rights. All clustered at the door like that, he could have pretty much decimated that team. But he didn't fire a single shot. Why?

Why did his wife call the police if she knew it was the police that just kicked her door and shot her husband? That part really doesn't make sense to me.

As far as their argument that they found parts of police uniforms in his house means nothing to me. One of my buddies got hit by Los Angeles Sheriffs and BATFE as he was getting into his car one night. They told the media (several times) that the raid yielded machine guns and weapons stolen from the US Army. Both were lies, and he was acquitted since everything he had was legal. Thank goodness they didn't do a raid like this and kill him (they grabbed him as he was leaving the house, about to get into his car), or I think that their lies would have become truth. Dead men can't contest a story...

Hell, I've got a vest in my closet that's almost identical to the ones the SWAT in that raid were wearing, and my mall ninja standard 5.11 pants. They could say that they found "parts of police uniforms" in my house! Man, the things they could say about me. Bomb making manuals. Army SF manual on my computer. Body armor! He gots body armor, even stuff that stops rifle bullets!

Sorry, but to even justify the reason behind a SWAT raid to me, it's going to take something more compelling than a guy who works 12 hours at a copper mine supposedly slinging drugs (Ok, I could see him selling some weed to his friends...) or having "parts" of police uniforms.

If you're going to send in SWAT, this guy had better be a very dangerous person. And so far, there is zero evidence of that.

 

[Texan2]

I just have a few issues that don't allow me to dismiss the argument. I've only seen one version of the video, but every site, the audio seems fine. The music in the van and the sound of the idling diesel never change volume...

Beyond the question of why they did a SWAT raid on the guy in the first place, my issues are:

If he's the criminal they claim, he really had these guys dead to rights. All clustered at the door like that, he could have pretty much decimated that team. But he didn't fire a single shot. Why?

Why did his wife call the police if she knew it was the police that just kicked her door and shot her husband? That part really doesn't make sense to me.

As far as their argument that they found parts of police uniforms in his house means nothing to me. One of my buddies got hit by Los Angeles Sheriffs and BATFE as he was getting into his car one night. They told the media (several times) that the raid yielded machine guns and weapons stolen from the US Army. Both were lies, and he was acquitted since everything he had was legal. Thank goodness they didn't do a raid like this and kill him (they grabbed him as he was leaving the house, about to get into his car), or I think that their lies would have become truth. Dead men can't contest a story...

Hell, I've got a vest in my closet that's almost identical to the ones the SWAT in that raid were wearing, and my mall ninja standard 5.11 pants. They could say that they found "parts of police uniforms" in my house! Man, the things they could say about me. Bomb making manuals. Army SF manual on my computer. Body armor! He gots body armor, even stuff that stops rifle bullets!

Sorry, but to even justify the reason behind a SWAT raid to me, it's going to take something more compelling than a guy who works 12 hours at a copper mine supposedly slinging drugs (Ok, I could see him selling some weed to his friends...) or having "parts" of police uniforms.

If you're going to send in SWAT, this guy had better be a very dangerous person. And so far, there is zero evidence of that.

I get what you are saying, but you cant look at each piece of evidence individually, you look at the totality.

Despite what some on here think of LE SWAT teams, they are neccessary. We have well-organized criminal enterprises working within our borders, they are trained and armed better then even the best LE agency. Having units that can go toe to toe with these types of elements is a neccessary evil in our society.

It would be great if we could all be "Officer Friendly" 24/7, but thats just not reality.

We still dont have all of the facts of this case, nor will we (nor should we) until the investigation is over.

I agree with you that he did have the SWAT team dead to rights had he wanted to kill some of them. As you and I have already agreed, you dont wait to take fire when someone has a gun pointed at you.

 

[M. Sage]

I've got no problem with SWAT teams, I have a problem with them being very over-used. Drug raids? C'mon. SWAT needs to be used in cases where life and limb are at risk. Not for drugs (which the police were after, and which they admit the didn't find).

I've followed a lot of cases like this, and the truth is that we'll never learn all the details. The truth is buried and it's going to stay that way. That's the way it is 90% of the time when the person on the receiving end is killed.

 

[Texan2]

I've got no problem with SWAT teams, I have a problem with them being very over-used. Drug raids? C'mon. SWAT needs to be used in cases where life and limb are at risk. Not for drugs (which the police were after, and which they admit the didn't find).

I've followed a lot of cases like this, and the truth is that we'll never learn all the details. The truth is buried and it's going to stay that way. That's the way it is 90% of the time when the person on the receiving end is killed.

I dont know about that, but at least you and I can have an adult convestation about the issue....I consider that an achievement after some of the tirades I have heard.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

I've got no problem with SWAT teams, I have a problem with them being very over-used. Drug raids? C'mon. SWAT needs to be used in cases where life and limb are at risk. Not for drugs (which the police were after, and which they admit the didn't find).

I've followed a lot of cases like this, and the truth is that we'll never learn all the details. The truth is buried and it's going to stay that way. That's the way it is 90% of the time when the person on the receiving end is killed.

Right there with you overused. There's a time and a place.

People are still innocent until PROVEN guilty in a court of law right? So by definition....until they can validate he did anything wrong they just shot an innocent citizen in his own home. Maybe he is guilty as sin when the facts come out. I don't know. The lack of facts is overwhelming. Maybe SWAT was justified.

My point is not with the justification, but around whether SWAT should be used in this manner in the first place. why couldn't they watch him and grab him going to his car or something? I'm just saying that if we are all still "pretending" that we follow the rule of law then maybe, just maybe, we can try not to come bustin' in with SWAT to grab a single person at his house. SWAT should be limited to things like large busts, and/or significant levels of evidence for VERY serious offenders.

I get that LEOs take large risks, and it's not an easy job. But that is their job. They represent the force of the state, but ARE the state. And as such their job is to bring people to stand trial, not to shoot them. The presumption of innocence and the right of the people to stand trial by a jury of their peers are still valid right? Why would it be any harder to nab them at a stop light going to work, or any other time when you could plan a trap, clearly see them, and lower the risk of these types of miscommunications. Crashing into someone's home just seems ill conceived. There has to be a better tactic than this that offers lower risk to both the officers and the alleged criminal.

 

[Texan2]

Hippie, by your logic every police shooting involves an "innocent" person. When people pull guns on the police they have yet to be convicted of anything. He wasnt shot for being guilty of anything but pointing a rifle at the cops. Whatever else he did or did not do is irrelevent at that moment.

Their job (or part of it) IS to arrest people but when those people use deadly force against them, deadly force is often used in return, and justifiably so.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Hippie, by your logic every police shooting involves an "innocent" person. When people pull guns on the police they have yet to be convicted of anything. He wasnt shot for being guilty of anything but pointing a rifle at the cops. Whatever else he did or did not do is irrelevent at that moment.

Their job (or part of it) IS to arrest people but when those people use deadly force against them, deadly force is often used in return, and justifiably so.

Every police shooting does involve an "innocent" person. By definition they're only "alleged" until evidence is presented. Not saying they are ultimately innocent, only that they are innocent until proven otherwise.

Don't forget that LEOs or not they are on HIS property UNINVITED, busting through HIS door. That would tend to put him in a very different mindset than say picking him up when he stops at the local 7-11 for gas. My first reaction would be to grab a gun too, unless I could clearly see they were police (and I'm innocent).

Maybe it came across the wrong way over the internet. I'm not talking specifically about this case. The whole point I'm trying to make is that there's got to be a lower risk way to get people to court to PROVE out that they're innocent or guilty. These raids CREATE higher risk situations than are necessary for both the LEOs and the person they are trying to capture. I would rather see no one get shot, LEOs or "alleged" criminals. I believe using different tactics would be safer and more effective for everyone involved in many of these cases.

 

[Texan2]

gotcha....no one getting shot is usually the best outcome.

 

[M. Sage]

See, the deadly force thing. I'm going to go back to this being a raid for drugs.

Is it worth cops killing people (or being killed themselves) over drugs? This is something that doesn't inherently involve force - both parties are consenting. This shouldn't have been a SWAT issue to begin with. Hell, this shouldn't have even been a raid to begin with.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

gotcha....no one getting shot is usually the best outcome.

LOL .... usually, I agree

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

See, the deadly force thing. I'm going to go back to this being a raid for drugs.

Is it worth cops killing people (or being killed themselves) over drugs? This is something that doesn't inherently involve force - both parties are consenting. This shouldn't have been a SWAT issue to begin with. Hell, this shouldn't have even been a raid to begin with.

In the 20's the G-men could be coming through my door right now, to "BUST" me for my evil, evil whiskey I'm sipping on.

 

[Texan2]

See, the deadly force thing. I'm going to go back to this being a raid for drugs.

Is it worth cops killing people (or being killed themselves) over drugs? This is something that doesn't inherently involve force - both parties are consenting. This shouldn't have been a SWAT issue to begin with. Hell, this shouldn't have even been a raid to begin with.

I believe that the drug issue is a separate issue.
The point here is that police had a legal warrant, announced their presence...and suspect pointed a rifle at them. It is unfortunate, but the suspect decided the outcome.
Whether SWAT should have been used is a separate issue, and one which we cant determine as we dont know the facts of this case or of all of what he was suspected of.

 

[M. Sage]

I believe that the drug issue is a separate issue.
The point here is that police had a legal warrant, announced their presence...and suspect pointed a rifle at them. It is unfortunate, but the suspect decided the outcome.
Whether SWAT should have been used is a separate issue, and one which we cant determine as we dont know the facts of this case or of all of what he was suspected of.

We know what he was suspected of, the police told us - drugs. Then they changed their story. They said that he's got parts of police uniforms, so he must have been doing home invasions dressed as police (the irony...).

Where he had time to do stuff like this while working 12 hour shifts at the copper mine and coming home to his wife and two kids is beyond any kind of arithmetic I ever learned...

Look, it pains me to admit it because there are good guys like you, but the police have lost my trust. I've been lied to too many times, been on the wrong end of too many power trips and seen too much BS that's become actually ingrained into the structure of our police force to believe anything I'm told at face value. I've had too many cops with small man syndrome interact with me, and yes I've learned how to spot them so I can stroke their pathetic little egos and get out of tickets (these kinds are almost universally the dumbest cops you've ever met).

I am more scared of the police hitting my house by mistake than I am of criminals doing it on purpose. I'm more worried about being approached on the street by a police officer than I am a criminal.

I can fight back against a criminal and get a pat on the back and an attaboy. If I fight back against a cop, even if he's 100% in the wrong, I'm fucked.

Guys like you need to take a hard line because it's guys like you that these kind of cops are fucking over more than the citizens. You guys need to stop with the whole "brotherhood" crap and destroy these assholes before you lose everybody's trust. Tip - you're closer to that point than you might think.

 

[Texan2]

Sage, as has been stated, I have taken a hard line. I have arrested other cops when it was warranted and fired officers that had no business....being in the buisiness. You make some valid points in you last post. Others I believe are a bit overblown.

I dont know where you live that you fear the cops more than the criminals but wherever it is I would move. And for the record it is the media that has screwed this up. They routinely jump to conclusions as do many of the members here. When corrected the public thinks the police changed the story, which isnt the case.

the reason you cant figure out when he had time to be a criminal is because we dont knowthe whole story yet.

 

[majormadmax]

SWAT would not be involved unless it was strongly suspected that the individual was armed. They don't conduct drug busts unless there is a threat of deadly force. And while this is a tragic situation, the bottom line is that the Marine pointed a rifle at SWAT officers and in that split second they took appropriate action. Put yourself in their shoes, you involved in a raid and suddenly someone has a AR aimed at you, are you really going to wait to see if the weapon is on safe?

I don't fault the SWAT team, nor do I fault the Marine that was killed; but this is what happens when you reside in a place that is known for dealing drugs. I don't worry about it because I make sure it's clear that there is no illegal activity going on at my home. The Marine may not have been guilty of dealing, but he was in a house where it was happening and that is what lead to the events that unfolded. Blaming the SWAT team is ridiculous, they were only doing the job that we pay them to do...

Cheers! M2

 

[M. Sage]

Sage, as has been stated, I have taken a hard line. I have arrested other cops when it was warranted and fired officers that had no business....being in the buisiness. You make some valid points in you last post. Others I believe are a bit overblown.

I dont know where you live that you fear the cops more than the criminals but wherever it is I would move. And for the record it is the media that has screwed this up. They routinely jump to conclusions as do many of the members here. When corrected the public thinks the police changed the story, which isnt the case.

the reason you cant figure out when he had time to be a criminal is because we dont knowthe whole story yet.

The police I fear are everywhere. Every department has been infected with the "Us vs them" mentality...

 

[zembonez]

The police I fear are everywhere. Every department has been infected with the "Us vs them" mentality...

That's really too bad. I have known a lot of cops over the years and I've never seen this as a prevailing attitude. They do get disgusted in the erosion of respect for authority that is eating our society... as do I.

You have various levels of competence in all walks of life. Cops included.

As I've said before, fire all of the police in the US and you'll see just how damn good of a job they were doing. Can you say Mexico?