SHOTGUN “Experts” (A Rant)

[MountainGirl]

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The two boxes were never opened.

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leVieux
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Which injuries are you and your family most likely to encounter on a daily basis?

>

To answer, are we talking minor “emergencies”, or unanticipated life-threatening events ?

And, where will those be; home or travel ?

?
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Before I was a Texan, even before I was a MountainGirl - I was a prepper. Still am.

leVieux - your background and experience are stellar. The thing is - your questions cannot be answered with anything other than: It's not possible to know when or where something might happen, and to what degree.

In each situation, we do the best we can with what we got.
We cant carry everything we might need, and putting together a 'kit' with what we can do, have the knowledge to utilize, is the best trade-off, IMO.

 

[benenglish]

My med kit with tourniquets, etc., tends to stay in the trunk of my car when I'm traveling and close to the main fire extinguisher when I'm home.

The only medical supplies that are always on my person are an asthma inhaler and nitroglycerin.

Protip - Select your nitro carefully. Pills are useless; they turn to powder and lose their effectiveness by the time you need them. Capsules may be better and patches have their uses but for emergency use, nothing beats the liquid you spray under your tongue. Even then, you have to be selective; some brands of liquid nitro don't seem to be any more effective than water. The stuff packaged by Dynamit Nobel is the most common and, surprisingly considering the source, generally useless. You'd be surprised how difficult it can be to specify a maker/distributor for your meds sometimes but it's worth the trouble to fight the good fight and find the good stuff. The importer/distributor tends to change every few years so you have to do some research to find a current National Drug Code but whoever is selling it, the manufacturer has been using the same packaging for a very long time. It looks like this:

 

[cycleguy2300]

1). Respiratory airway emergencies are hundreds of times more frequent than any real need for a tourniquet in civilian outpatient emergency management.

2). Most Physicians & Surgeons recommend layperson control of active bleeding by direct compression applied just above a bleeder, towards the heart. This method is usually effective; and is much, much less likely to cause the serious permanent injuries associated with tourniquets.
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#1
Maybe... thats why I carry an NP tube, but massive bleeding will kill faster and is not reversible in the field. Beyond a NP tube, the equipment to set up and maintain airways is bulky and difficult to carry. Its not something that I can carry in my pockets or an IFAK, its backpack gear for a medic/paramedic or EMT.

#2
How long ago was that? I can find NO modern training or lit to support that.. Their experience is likely in a hospital setting where if someone needed a TQ and they didn't apply one there are already dead, and they can afford to let someone bleed a bit longer because they have blood on hand to give them.

If its small and can be controlled with direct pressure, great. But when you need a TQ, nothing else will do. One of my recent trainers related his experience in SF as a medic where he was not allowed to use a TQ except as a last resort. He had to "work up" to it over 20 or 30 minutes of trying other interventions and had people die because of it.

A properly applied TQ has a VERY low risk. Limbs lost after TQ application are not because of the TQ, its because it was fucked up which was why the TQ was applied in the first place.

I've had dozens of TQs applied to me, by my self and others in training and applied dozens more in training and actual injured people.. They are applied TIGHT as they should be and ZERO injuries from the TQ. Out of witnessing many hundred TQs applied to others in training I have seen ZERO injuries.

Love you leVieux, but your training on TQs is simply outdated. 15 or 20 years ago, yes, what you are saying was the current practice, but drs, surgeons, soldiers and first responders (including EMS with a dr in charge of them) have realized the power a TQ has to preserve life especially since the war on terror started.





If you have massive bleeding immediately apply a TQ high on the limb and tighten until the bleeding stops. Once it is stopped, you have hands free to treat other injuries or manage airway until EMS arrives with all their tools.

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[cycleguy2300]

The part that gets me with these "experts" trauma kits is that they have the TQs, chest seals, and QuikClot.....but they have nothing to treat a basic cut. They carry these packs for major wounds, but neglect packing bandaids, alcohol swabs, hand sanitizer, or triple-antibiotic ointment.

Which injuries are you and your family most likely to encounter on a daily basis?

I have a (several) fully stocked IFAKs so they can be left in place, and adjacent to it is a boo-boo kit* with BIG to small bandaids, tubes of antibiotic, antifungal and hydrocortisone. I dont know who these "experts" you follow or know are, but I suggest finding some that are experts and they will tell you to make a parallel kit for boo-boos.

Depending on your general car set up, consider carrying your IFAK in the cab, behind or on the front seats is common. If you are involved in a crash, trunks have a way of becoming inoperable, locking you out of your IFAK access... Mine is usually in the back floorboard with my big fire extinguisher.

*magpul daka pouches work great.

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[bbbass]

I'm terrible with a shotgun, the proverbial "couldn't hit the side of a barn if I was standing inside." What little experience I have is with a Model 12.

That said, what you describe sounds to me like a defective design.

I was told that Mossberg made them that way "for safety". KInda like the 20lb trigger on some of the Rem Nylon 66. I don't know if it was a limited production run or when it started or ended. But it sure made rapid shooting hard unless one was able to retrain to put pressure forward instead of using the off hand to snug the shotgun into the shoulder, as would be natural.

I still have that shotgun, but it is hanging in the closet with an 18" barrel and an extended tube mag, and a reflex optic, laser, and a 2000lumen taclight. Might be useful for a zombie attack or for possums.

 

[Sam7sf]

So 500’s and 590 a1’s also need to run dry. If they get any grease or a lot of lube they can actually stop; the action will jam.

One reason I like em. Just keep it clean and free of debris and give it zero love.

 

[studenygreg]

So 500’s and 590 a1’s also need to run dry. If they get any grease or a lot of lube they can actually stop; the action will jam.

One reason I like em. Just keep it clean and free of debris and give it zero love.

Interesting. I need to try this. I have always lubed mine lightly.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[Sam7sf]

Interesting. I need to try this. I have always lubed mine lightly.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Found it out accidentally

 

[Sam7sf]

A small amount of grease caused my 590a1 to lock up. After verifying reassembly several times, it only returned to normal operation dry/removing all grease.

Light lube is fine it just doesn’t take much to gunk up that action

 

[model141man]

>
As one who has used pump shotguns for over 65 years, owner of several, and in-Family “instructor”, I have extensive experience with our major pump-guns like, Model 12, 870, M500, BPS, even old 1895 Winchester “Knuckle Skinners”, etc. http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/12295/12691281_1.jpg?v=8CEFB51DA21F580 View attachment 363516
View attachment 363516
When young in South Texas, I routinely shot 6, or 7, 500 round cases of shells per year.

I recently watched one more video, in which an “expert” demonstrated pump gun use, but looked to me to not have a clue.

If any pump is to be used efficiently, the “pumping” action is done with the shot and recoil, not later.

I ask other pump gunners to take a moment and call-out these faux “experts” whenever you see them.

I can recall old Herb Parsons throwing seven targets into the air, then casually hitting all while they were still up there, using a Remington pumpgun. He would shoot the 5 or 6 rounds, then reload from shells held in his left hand, to finish.

I never could do anything like that.

But I did shoot many triples on passing doves & teal. Never “holding the trigger down”, either.

There are reasons for the enduring favor of pump shotguns, and their capability of very rapid rate of fire is certainly one. We all should learn the proper technique, whether we use it or not.

Rant over,
leVieux
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Sir, not to sound like a know-it-all but Herb Parsons used a Model 12 Winchester. Great write-up Sir.

 

[Axxe55]

NOTHING MORE FUN THAN A COUPLE OF EXPERTS TRYING TO OUT EXPERT EACH OTHER!

 

[leVieux]

Sir, not to sound like a know-it-all but Herb Parsons used a Model 12 Winchester. Great write-up Sir.

Right you are. It’s been some 60+ years since I watched old Herb. He’d visit my hometown every year for our Fall “Rice Festival” & shoot demos a day or two at a local golf course. BTW the Festival was an idea of Justin Wilson, my Mom’s next-door neighbor. Loved those Mod. 12’s !

 

[model141man]

NOTHING MORE FUN THAN A COUPLE OF EXPERTS TRYING TO OUT EXPERT EACH OTHER!

I am not an expert. I just made a hopefully kind comment to the good gentleman because I knew he already knew what kind of shotgun Herb Parsons used but like me maybe, my memory confuses me sometimes. No offense intended to anyone Sir and Happy New Year to ya!

 

[zackmars]

Where i worked, we had a guy (young, maybe 21-22) who billed himself as the "resident shotgun expert".

He once walked up to a guy who had a Kreighoff, and said it was just like his Mossberg 500 because of the gold trigger.


He was not an expert

 

[Fishkiller]

Where i worked, we had a guy (young, maybe 21-22) who billed himself as the "resident shotgun expert".

He once walked up to a guy who had a Kreighoff, and said it was just like his Mossberg 500 because of the gold trigger.


He was not an expert

Yes he was in his mind. Just like I am a S&W 590 expert

 

[zackmars]

Yes he was in his mind. Just like I am a S&W 590 expert

He also did the following

Spun and slapped the cylinder on an original colt python

Reloaded some .270 win that blew apart a savage 110

Tried shooting maybe 20 rounds of grendel through his AR before he realized i took the firing pin out.

Fun guy, just don't let him near firearms

 

[leVieux]

>
As one who has used pump shotguns for over 65 years, owner of several, and in-Family “instructor”, I have extensive experience with our major pump-guns like, Model 12, 870, M500, BPS, even old 1895 Winchester “Knuckle Skinners”, etc. http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/12295/12691281_1.jpg?v=8CEFB51DA21F580 View attachment 363516
View attachment 363516
When young in South Texas, I routinely shot 6, or 7, 500 round cases of shells per year.

I recently watched one more video, in which an “expert” demonstrated pump gun use, but looked to me to not have a clue.

If any pump is to be used efficiently, the “pumping” action is done with the shot and recoil, not later.

I ask other pump gunners to take a moment and call-out these faux “experts” whenever you see them.

I can recall old Herb Parsons throwing seven targets into the air, then casually hitting all while they were still up there, using a Remington pumpgun. He would shoot the 5 or 6 rounds, then reload from shells held in his left hand, to finish.

I never could do anything like that.

But I did shoot many triples on passing doves & teal. Never “holding the trigger down”, either.

There are reasons for the enduring favor of pump shotguns, and their capability of very rapid rate of fire is certainly one. We all should learn the proper technique, whether we use it or not.

Rant over,
leVieux
.

>

”Edit for correction”; I have been properly corrected in that the late Mr. Parsons favored the Winchester Mod. 12. As did almost everyone of those days. That was before the 870. The action of the Mod. 12 is still “smoother” & more natural. leVieux.

 

[leVieux]

Yes he was in his mind. Just like I am a S&W 590 expert

>
Err,

”Expertise” depends a lot on the audience.

Our Academy’s gun section has lots of “Experts”.

As my late Dad taught me, “Always find out to whom you are talking,
FIRST !”

Could tell stories. . . . . .

leVieux
.

 

[leVieux]

He also did the following

Spun and slapped the cylinder on an original colt python

Reloaded some .270 win that blew apart a savage 110

Tried shooting maybe 20 rounds of grendel through his AR before he realized i took the firing pin out.

Fun guy, just don't let him near firearms

>
We all have known one !
.

 

[Sam7sf]

He also did the following

Spun and slapped the cylinder on an original colt python