MINIMUM DEFENSIVE CARRY CALIBER

[@TX_1]

just know only wooden stakes work on vampires not silver bullets....

There are different types of vampires. The current WOKE pronoun talking freaks are certainly vulnerable to lead bullets as well as silver bullets. (I have an unopened box of 20, 30-30 Bi-Centennial Commemorative ammo. They are silver tipped)

I have no interest in harming anybody. But we protect our own. The day may come, but we are not there yet.

Smile. I just loaded some ammo last night for a new 9mm pistol. I used 147 gr polymer coated lead bullets for it. Looking forward to checking out the accuracy. Was very careful in metering and planning the charge. They look pretty. Blue polymer tips and nickel plated brass. If it shoots as pretty as it looks, I will load a lot more.

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[A1Oni]

A shocking number of people are shot with their own guns.
That's why I like a manual safety.
Most people today are so used to a trigger safety. Its one small "combination" that a practiced user can "solve" before use and dumbass the perp wont.

in a majority of cases this is such a non issue if you arent a stupid idiot, if you learn how to shoot from retention and practice you wont get your shit taken.
I carry a DA/SA gun with a decocker and one in the chamber with a full magazine because if I need to shoot I wanna shoot with as minimal action needed to get the gun ready.

 

[leVieux]

What agencies?

I have NEVER heard of ball/fmj being allowed for duty use and definitely never required.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

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My i-pad ate the long p.m. I was going to send.

Will try again later. . . . .

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[General Zod]

Also, my long-ago experience with 1911’s taught me that ball gave fewer FTL’s.

When I was last in the Army, c. 1978, issue handgun ammo for both B92 & 1911 was all ‘’ball’’.

So when you were in the Army in 1978, they were issuing you ammo for a pistol that wouldn't be adopted until 7 years later? The M92 was adopted in 1985. And the use of ball ammo is a serious weakness for military 9mm pistols and was based on a mis-application of the Geneva Conventions' ban on "dum-dum" bullets modified to expand or fragment. The Pentagon has since moved on from this misreading. That's why the US military now issues 9mm JHP ammo for the Sig M17 and remaining Beretta M92 pistols.

 

[leVieux]

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While on this topic; does anyone have real-world experience with either the .30SC or the .32FedMag ?

Octogenarian looking to downsize here.

Seeking ONLY opinions based on personal experiences.

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[zackmars]

So when you were in the Army in 1978, they were issuing you ammo for a pistol that wouldn't be adopted until 7 years later? The M92 was adopted in 1985. And the use of ball ammo is a serious weakness for military 9mm pistols and was based on a mis-application of the Geneva Conventions' ban on "dum-dum" bullets modified to expand or fragment. The Pentagon has since moved on from this misreading. That's why the US military now issues 9mm JHP ammo for the Sig M17 and remaining Beretta M92 pistols.

Minor thing, but it was the Hauge conventions, not the Geneva.

We signed the Geneva conventions but not the Hauge

 

[General Zod]

Minor thing, but it was the Hauge conventions, not the Geneva.

We signed the Geneva conventions but not the Hauge

I generally see it presented (often in articles written by those who should know better) as a part of the Geneva Conventions. Still, the point remains - it was a mis-application of a prohibition on altered or modified ammunition, not on factory made expanding ammo. And FMJ is a terrible choice for self defense ammunition, no matter what the Army was issuing before the mistake was corrected.

 

[zackmars]

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While on this topic; does anyone have real-world experience with either the .30SC or the .32FedMag ?

Octogenarian looking to downsize here.

Seeking ONLY opinions based on personal experiences.

<?>

.30 sc is a dumb round designed to compete against 9mm yet s&w refuses to actually support it so it's already dead.

.327 mag died because all the rounds it's compatible with are all equally rare and expensive

 

[zackmars]

I generally see it presented (often in articles written by those who should know better) as a part of the Geneva Conventions. Still, the point remains - it was a mis-application of a prohibition on altered or modified ammunition, not on factory made expanding ammo. And FMJ is a terrible choice for self defense ammunition, no matter what the Army was issuing before the mistake was corrected.

I wouldn’t feel too bad if i was stuck with 124gr NATO in my carry gun. No it wont expand but unless they're wearing a IIIa vest, it won't stop.


I think people put too much emphasis on over penetration.

 

[General Zod]

I wouldn’t feel too bad if i was stuck with 124gr NATO in my carry gun. No it wont expand but unless they're wearing a IIIa vest, it won't stop.


I think people put too much emphasis on over penetration.

Overpenetration means less transfer of energy to the target - more shots required to do enough damage to end the threat. I'm not a fan of math by any means, but I like this math even less.

 

[seeker_two]

Overpenetration means less transfer of energy to the target - more shots required to do enough damage to end the threat. I'm not a fan of math by any means, but I like this math even less.

If you put holes in the brain, spine, and heart where God didn't design them to be, then energy transfer isn't as important....

 

[General Zod]

If you put holes in the brain, spine, and heart where God didn't design them to be, then energy transfer isn't as important....

If you're that accurate under pressure or in a fight, then you and your faithful Indian companion can do a lot of good out in the West.

Also, humans are pretty resilient, especially when adrenaline is in the mix. Neat holes in the heart and brain don't always stop the show immediately.

 

[zackmars]

Overpenetration means less transfer of energy to the target - more shots required to do enough damage to end the threat. I'm not a fan of math by any means, but I like this math even less.

It's a handgun, the energy isn't doing much. You still need to hit vital organs to destroy them, unlike a rifle where all that energy can cause hydrostatic shock.

All a JHP is doing is giving you a little bit of wiggle room, going from 9mm to roughly 13mm (HST)

 

[zackmars]

If you're that accurate under pressure or in a fight, then you and your faithful Indian companion can do a lot of good out in the West.

Also, humans are pretty resilient, especially when adrenaline is in the mix. Neat holes in the heart and brain don't always stop the show immediately.

Thats why 9mm has been around for so long, and why people continue to adopt it, despite it being older than .45 acp even.

No handgun round, 9mm, .45, .357, 10mm, etc will do the job of a rifle. 9mm is good enough, and lets you cram a lot of rounds in the magazine and lets you shoot fast.

 

[General Zod]

It's a handgun, the energy isn't doing much. You still need to hit vital organs to destroy them, unlike a rifle where all that energy can cause hydrostatic shock.

All a JHP is doing is giving you a little bit of wiggle room, going from 9mm to roughly 13mm

That forced expansion dumps more kinetic energy into the tissue than you realize. And even a rifle doesn't guarantee it'll stop someone who's motivated, as my late father's VA disability claim can attest to. Punching neat, clean holes in someone even with an M1 Garand won't necessarily stop them. Even a little bit of expansion is better than none at all.

 

[zackmars]

That forced expansion dumps more kinetic energy into the tissue than you realize. And even a rifle doesn't guarantee it'll stop someone who's motivated, as my late father's VA disability claim can attest to. Punching neat, clean holes in someone even with an M1 Garand won't necessarily stop them. Even a little bit of expansion is better than none at all.

And no handgun, no matter what you manage to put in it will even get close to the amount of energy that a .30-06 is putting out.

I am not arguing that JHP's are worthless, however i am arguing that the energy really isn't doing much. It's a handgun round, all it can do is poke a hole. Anything that it destroys, it has to physically hit it.

If you want that energy to do anything other than just be there, you'll need to bump up the velocity to ~2000 FPS.

 

[General Zod]

And no handgun, no matter what you manage to put in it will even get close to the amount of energy that a .30-06 is putting out.

I am not arguing that JHP's are worthless, however i am arguing that the energy really isn't doing much. It's a handgun round, all it can do is poke a hole. Anything that it destroys, it has to physically hit it.

If you want that energy to do anything other than just be there, you'll need to bump up the velocity to ~2000 FPS.

And I'm saying that punching a larger hole is more destructive than punching a little one. And yes, you have to hit tissue to damage it, particularly vital tissue - but once you do, that energy transfer is destructive as well. If your 9mm round keeps most of its kinetic energy to itself and punches a neat, clean hole in an assailant, you're going to have to shoot him a hell of a lot more to get the same result as if you had shot him with hollowpoints.

If I hand you a nail and a machine bolt and have you drive each one into a board with a hammer, which one is going to tear the board up more? The one with a pointy tip that punches cleanly through the wood, or the one that's somewhat larger and bashes its way in?

 

[zackmars]

And I'm saying that punching a larger hole is more destructive than punching a little one. And yes, you have to hit tissue to damage it, particularly vital tissue - but once you do, that energy transfer is destructive as well. If your 9mm round keeps most of its kinetic energy to itself and punches a neat, clean hole in an assailant, you're going to have to shoot him a hell of a lot more to get the same result as if you had shot him with hollowpoints.

If I hand you a nail and a machine bolt and have you drive each one into a board with a hammer, which one is going to tear the board up more? The one with a pointy tip that punches cleanly through the wood, or the one that's somewhat larger and bashes its way in?

It's not all that more destructive. Remember, it's a handgun round. It's a third place looser that's only accepted because it means you can have a smaller gun.

There's plenty of cases of one stop shots with FMJ's and plenty of cases of guys taking dozens of rounds of gold dots, HST's etc. This is because you need to hit a vital organ to have any meaningful chance to stop the threat. A 9mm FMJ that hits the heart is going to do far more than a 9mm hst in the shoulder blade.

You can't simply bring it down to overall damage, its about dealing damage to the few important bits where the damage has any affect. Yes a JHP will do more damage, but it still has to hit a vital organ.

 

[General Zod]

It's not all that more destructive. Remember, it's a handgun round. It's a third place looser that's only accepted because it means you can have a smaller gun.

There's plenty of cases of one stop shots with FMJ's and plenty of cases of guys taking dozens of rounds of gold dots, HST's etc. This is because you need to hit a vital organ to have any meaningful chance to stop the threat. A 9mm FMJ that hits the heart is going to do far more than a 9mm hst in the shoulder blade.

You can't simply bring it down to overall damage, its about dealing damage to the few important bits where the damage has any affect. Yes a JHP will do more damage, but it still has to hit a vital organ.

Point out to me, please, where I stated that a hit on a vital organ is not important with JHP's? You're arguing with me over the details of something I never claimed.

And seriously, if the difference is that negligible, then why have law enforcement agencies almost unanimously adopted JHP over FMJ ammo?

 

[zackmars]

Point out to me, please, where I stated that a hit on a vital organ is not important with JHP's? You're arguing with me over the details of something I never claimed.

And seriously, if the difference is that negligible, then why have law enforcement agencies almost unanimously adopted JHP over FMJ ammo?

Thats mostly referring to this post

If you're that accurate under pressure or in a fight, then you and your faithful Indian companion can do a lot of good out in the West.

Also, humans are pretty resilient, especially when adrenaline is in the mix. Neat holes in the heart and brain don't always stop the show immediately.

Hitting a vital organ is the most important part of the equation.

Everyone uses JHP's now because it does offer an advantage. Not a huge one, but enough of one to justify their adoption. Regardless if it's JHP or FMJ, its a handgun. Not a shotgun, not a rifle. It will poke holes. To have those holes do anything, you either hit the T zone or the heart.