MINIMUM DEFENSIVE CARRY CALIBER

[leVieux]

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Ii’ve been watching these discussions, often heated, here & elsewhere, I feel need to comment.

Over the past 55 years, I’ve seen hundreds of handgun shooting survivors, and quite a few of the dead corpses. I’b bet I’ve seen more gunshot wounds up-close than any panel of gun experts.

This has been a mix of suicides, gun battles, hunting accidents, police shootings, etc.

To my mind, the OBJECT of shooting game animals is to put them down quickly & humanely, dead.

But the stated object of defensive shootings is to ‘’stop the threat’’ , not necessarily to kill.

From memory, two of the worst single wound survivors I’ve seen were NOPD officers who each got one regular .380 to the upper mid abdomen in a ‘’traffic stop’’.

Strangely, i have seen many serious injuries and two DEATHS from Red Ryder type BB guns. Both of the deaths were contributed to by E D personnel ‘’mis underestimating’’ the seriousness of what appeared to be a very minor injury. In slender young boys, the thin wall of the right cardiac atrium is not far behind the skin b/t ribs. A tiny hole in the heart often causes fatal cardiac tamponade.

When defending against an armored attacker, good luck. Try head or lower extremity shots.

But, for the average civilian defensive incident; no shot is fired, anyway. The mere presence of a weapon stops the attack.

With reference to ‘’minimum caliber’’ , anything above .32ACP should be adequate, BECAUSE a criminal with a .380 to the chest of gut will suddenly lose interest in continuing has crimes. Allowing you to escape.

Safety planning is an exercise in understanding relative risks. Wether the subject is vaccines, lightning strikes, plane crashes, or crimes; wisdom dictates that planning focus on the most likely to happen.

My dictum on this is: In an emergency, ANY handgun is a lot better than NO handgun. A .22 is better than your finger.

So, IMHO, a very experienced opinion based on years of involvement, advice is to pick a primary carry gun which wll ALWAYS be with you. Focus on carryability & convenience, not caliber.

A corollary to this is that those tasked with defending us against armored attackers, as in military or ‘’crazy people mass shootings’’ should be armed with carbines of adequate caliber and with modern sighting systems. The idea of school guards and hospital security having to carry only 9mm’s but having AR10’s in storage is just plain stupid.

leVieux

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[oohrah]

Couldn't agree more. I carry a 380 for those exact reasons. It is light, easily concealable, and I often forget I am wearing it.

 

[seeker_two]

I think it's less of a minimum caliber and more of a minimum level of skill to use a certain caliber. A .22lr is a useful SD round IF you have the skill level to keep your shots in the face and head area at a rapid pace. A .357Mag or .44Mag is a useful SD round IF you have the skill level to manage the recoil for follow-up shots. 9mm, .380ACP, and .45ACP are good SD rounds IF you can make the hits in vital areas.

I like .380ACP as a SD round. I also think beginner shooters looking for a CCW should look at the medium-size guns in this caliber (P365, PD380, etc.) before considering the 9mm alternative.

 

[Tnhawk]

More important than the caliber, is the need to be familiar and train with the weapon.

 

[cbp210]

More important than the caliber, is the need to be familiar and train with the weapon.

Bingo. I would never carry a weapon unless I have alot of range time and drills with them.

 

[G O B]

There was a time when I had to run night service calls to DC public housing. My .25 ACP saved my bacon more than once. Lazer grips really help. Never had to bust a cap, but I never got rolled either.
PS .22lr is rimfire, and carry ammo is prone to FTF. If you HAVE to carry a .22, use a revolver and change ammo frequently. The .25 is boxer primed and will always go bang.

 

[cbp210]

There was a time when I had to run night service calls to DC public housing. My .25 ACP saved my bacon more than once. Lazer grips really help. Never had to bust a cap, but I never got rolled either.
PS .22lr is rimfire, and carry ammo is prone to FTF. If you HAVE to carry a .22, use a revolver and change ammo frequently. The .25 is boxer primed and will always go bang.

Oh hell. When I was working for the SF Housing Authority in 97, we were mandated to carry 38, 357, 9mm, 40, and 45 only. No other calibers were authorized. I got into three firefights with gang members who often carried tec 9's or Smith and Wesson 9mm's. At that time, I carried the Glock 22 40 Caliber or Smith and Wesson 5906 9mm.

 

[caddy]

When I carry, I usually have my 365. If i want something smaller and more comfortable then I carry a .380. It doesn't have the capacity of the 365 but it is smaller, lighter and more easily concealed.

 

[leVieux]

Bingo. I would never carry a weapon unless I have alot of range time and drills with them.

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Yes, of couse; but that wasn’t the issue.

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[leVieux]

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Some great “carry guns’’, especilly those for CC, just aren’t “range guns”.

J-frames, for instance.

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[leVieux]

Oh hell. When I was working for the SF Housing Authority in 97, we were mandated to carry 38, 357, 9mm, 40, and 45 only. No other calibers were authorized. I got into three firefights with gang members who often carried tec 9's or Smith and Wesson 9mm's. At that time, I carried the Glock 22 40 Caliber or Smith and Wesson 5906 9mm.

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Those who guard us in dangerous areas should be given AR10 carbines, or similar, with modern sighting systems.

The bureaucrats tell me that the sight of guards w/ carbines would upset citizens. I see it as just the opposite.

leVieux

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[TNMike]

I really only carry one of two things. An Gen 1 LCP, or a Glock 19.. depends on what I'm doing, where I'm going, and what I'm wearing. In either case I feel properly equipped and comfortable. I am more than proficient with either one, with either hand, and even in multiple different carry positions. I carry every day, and I practice often.

I tell anyone who inquires, carry only if your comfortable with it, and if you are very practiced. A gun that's never been fired by the end user often, and sometimes under stress is a recipe for a bad time.

Carry on.

 

[Glenn B]

BECAUSE a criminal with a .380 to the chest of gut will suddenly lose interest in continuing has crimes. Allowing you to escape.

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Every time I read or hear someone's words about how a shot to a bad guy's chest or to the CNS will stop an attack, I wonder why anyone would believe that because while it may happen often if is not necessarily going to be the case! I was a first hand witness of a patient in the emergency room of Beth Israel Medical Center, in NYC who had been shot in the head with either two bullets or one bullet that split into two big bullet fragments that had lodged in his brain. I was on shift at least 8 hours inside the ER, while this man was in a hospital bed awake, alert and begging for help - most of that time with nurses and doctors ignoring him because they had no clue what to do to help him. After at least a half hour, maybe an hour, one doctor told the nurses to secure him so he could not move because he kept trying, albeit unsuccessfully, to get out of the bed. What were the docs and nurses waiting for - why did they not help him. As I said they were clueless and let me add: no one wanted to injure him further by doing something wrong? They found only a single surgeon who said he would operate and he was in Europe on a ski trip but had promised to be on the first flight to NYC to operate on the guy. That would take most of a day before he could arrive. I was a security guard there and I was told to keep an eye on him. I conversed with him a few times, it was damned eerie. I do not know the outcome, as best I can recall I was not working there more than a couple of days after that because I refused to join the guard's union. I may have been told what was the outcome but damned if I recall; that was in about 1978 or 79.

Of course, there is also this case of an officer involved shooting, I will; not tell you much about it because I figure it is better for you to read the article in which the officer tells much of the story, read it here: https://www.police1.com/officer-shootings/articles/why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/. Let me just say the bad guy was hit many more times than once, several shots hitting his vital bodily organs, and he kept moving and kept shooting at the officer.

In my LE training, I remember there were other cases where a bad guy was shot and kept up his attack. It may not happen often but it does happen, thus blanket statements that being shot with a round in the chest or even in the CNS is going to cause a bad guy to break off an attack are wishful thinking at the very best or all too wrong all too often than one would expect. If you are involved in a defensive shooting - the training I received was to keep firing until the bad guy stops. If one shot does it that is all well and fine but if it takes 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 shots to stop an imminent threat to your life or an imminent threat of serious bodily harm - you need to keep defending yourself. You may want to believe one bullet in his chest may suddenly make him lose interest but if you think - wow no doubt I hit him dead center of his chest so now he most definitely will stop - well, you may be the one who winds up dead when he keeps firing.

 

[TXAZ]

A .22 short in the right spot is consistently lethal (and can be virtually silent), where a .50 BMG in soft extremity tissue may not be lethal.

The ability to precisely deliver the minimum amount of kinetic energy is more important than minimum caliber. So if you can get close enough to hit the spot, or precisely hit a better target area, then you can get away with a smaller caliber.

 

[Texasgordo]

30 Super Carry FTW

 

[alternative]

Is this post here just to eat up bandwidth?

 

[cbp210]

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Those who guard us in dangerous areas should be given AR10 carbines, or similar, with modern sighting systems.

The bureaucrats tell me that the sight of guards w/ carbines would upset citizens. I see it as just the opposite.

leVieux

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We had Colt M4 in our patrol vehicles as well as the Remington 870 shotguns at that time.

 

[leVieux]

Every time I read or hear someone's words about how a shot to a bad guy's chest or to the CNS will stop an attack, I wonder why anyone would believe that because while it may happen often if is not necessarily going to be the case! I was a first hand witness of a patient in the emergency room of Beth Israel Medical Center, in NYC who had been shot in the head with either two bullets or one bullet that split into two big bullet fragments that had lodged in his brain. I was on shift at least 8 hours inside the ER, while this man was in a hospital bed awake, alert and begging for help - most of that time with nurses and doctors ignoring him because they had no clue what to do to help him. After at least a half hour, maybe an hour, one doctor told the nurses to secure him so he could not move because he kept trying, albeit unsuccessfully, to get out of the bed. What were the docs and nurses waiting for - why did they not help him. As I said they were clueless and let me add: no one wanted to injure him further by doing something wrong? They found only a single surgeon who said he would operate and he was in Europe on a ski trip but had promised to be on the first flight to NYC to operate on the guy. That would take most of a day before he could arrive. I was a security guard there and I was told to keep an eye on him. I conversed with him a few times, it was damned eerie. I do not know the outcome, as best I can recall I was not working there more than a couple of days after that because I refused to join the guard's union. I may have been told what was the outcome but damned if I recall; that was in about 1978 or 79.

Of course, there is also this case of an officer involved shooting, I will; not tell you much about it because I figure it is better for you to read the article in which the officer tells much of the story, read it here: https://www.police1.com/officer-shootings/articles/why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/. Let me just say the bad guy was hit many more times than once, several shots hitting his vital bodily organs, and he kept moving and kept shooting at the officer.

In my LE training, I remember there were other cases where a bad guy was shot and kept up his attack. It may not happen often but it does happen, thus blanket statements that being shot with a round in the chest or even in the CNS is going to cause a bad guy to break off an attack are wishful thinking at the very best or all too wrong all too often than one would expect. If you are involved in a defensive shooting - the training I received was to keep firing until the bad guy stops. If one shot does it that is all well and fine but if it takes 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 shots to stop an imminent threat to your life or an imminent threat of serious bodily harm - you need to keep defending yourself. You may want to believe one bullet in his chest may suddenly make him lose interest but if you think - wow no doubt I hit him dead center of his chest so now he most definitely will stop - well, you may be the one who winds up dead when he keeps firing.

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Removing bullets or bullet fragments is what we call a “Doc Adams Procedure”’; mostly performed on TV shows or Western Movies.

In real life, very few surgeries are done to remove bullets. Especially in the brain.

Back in 1981, I saw two different young men who had been shot THROUGH the head & brain by Houston criminals, one w/ a .38; both recovered almost completely w/o brain surgery. One did have a big vein in his head reconstructed.

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[zackmars]

Smallest I'll carry is a 40

 

[Axxe55]

imo shot placement is a bigger factor than caliber size several wel placed smaller rounds trump a larger misplaced round every day!