MINIMUM DEFENSIVE CARRY CALIBER

[Texasjack]

I have a feeling that a lot of people decide on their carry caliber by what they've seen in the movies or what a bunch of mall ninjas discussed after the fourth round of brews at the local watering hole. In the movies, the bad guys always drop after one shot and the good guys can tie an old rag around their wounds and wait a few hours for them to heal.

In the real world, pistol shooting victims usually die from bleeding and that can be a slow process. Pistol caliber bullets have to hit certain vital spots (e.g., the brain) in order to have an instant stop, and that can be difficult in a real situation. Even suicide attempts have a pretty significant failure rate.

Mouse guns (.22, .25, .32) are low powered, but more importantly the bullets aren't the most effective. Statistically, these pistols wound and kill a high percentage of victims because they are the hidden, Saturday Night Specials used by low-life druggies and robbers, and they tend to shoot at close range. Still, any weapon is better than no weapon at all.

Anything bigger than a mouse gun is in the range to be a good defensive pistol, as long as it's not so powerful that the shooter can't handle it. If you want to have a solid chance when you're forced into a bad situation, then you need to have practiced as much as possible, and that requires that you are shooting a cartridge that you can comfortably and consistently handle. That .44 magnum may be impressive in Dirty Harry movies, but if it's more than you can handle, it's a bad choice.

Actually, it's not just the cartridge, but the firearm as well. A good example is the Ruger LCP. Nice little pistol, easily concealable (even in Texas summer weather), very reliable, and available in .380 or 9 mm. But if you take it to the range and try to shoot a couple of hundred rounds for practice, you'll need to prepare an ice bath for your hand afterwards. It's not fun to shoot. I heard a woman who was shooting a .44 mag pistol tell someone she'd rather shoot it than the LCP. I don't know how much was real and how much was just bravado, but I don't think it's a stretch to agree that you're going to have the best chance with a pistol and cartridge that you can - and do - practice with on a regular basis.

 

[glenbo]

Drunks and idiots who have taken a big dose of any kind of street drug can take an abnormal amount of punishment. PCP isn't as widely used as back about 30 years ago, but it gives the user almost superhuman strength. A .380 wouldn't do much to someone high on that stuff.

 

[SARGE67]

I can't relate to any of this. I have a 9mm S&W semi-auto and trained with it at the range, got my LTC, then bought lots of ammo and shot at lots of paper targets. My only prior experience with guns was actually real shooting at other guys with my M-16 in 'Nam as a Marine along the DMZ in 67-68. Believe me, watching someone fall is not like a hole in your paper target you can brag about. In keeping with the spirit of the thread, I will say that a 45 caliber should suffice for anyone.

 

[oldag]

Yes, try relying on that shot placement thing when:

• Adrenalin is surging so much your hands may well be shaking, fine motor abilities are certainly degraded
• Your heart is pumping so hard you can hear it in your ears
• Emotions are sky high as you are looking at someone who is in the process of trying to kill you

For the overwhelming majority of people, the above factors will come into play if they are in a situation where they have to shoot.

For me, bigger caliber means a bigger wound channel. More nerves screaming. Greater likelihood of hitting something vital. More momentum imparted to the perp's body.

A perfectly placed needle can kill if you want to rely on shot placement. For me, I am not relying on great shot placement in that scenario.

YMMV.

 

[oldag]

In the real world, pistol shooting victims usually die from bleeding and that can be a slow process.

True. Most people are not stopped by the bullet itself (e.g., shot physically incapacitates them), but rather the pain and the emotional shock of being shot eliminates their will to keep attacking.

 

[zackmars]

No need to worry about shot placement with a round with a 5 meter kill radius...

 

[TXAZ]

Smallest I'll carry is a 40

https://www.texasguntalk.com/attachments/images-11-jpeg.421964/

Zackmars is my new best friend!

 

[Glenn B]

<>

Removing bullets or bullet fragments is what we call a “Doc Adams Procedure”’; mostly performed on TV shows or Western Movies.

In real life, very few surgeries are done to remove bullets. Especially in the brain.

Back in 1981, I saw two different young men who had been shot THROUGH the head & brain by Houston criminals, one w/ a .38; both recovered almost completely w/o brain surgery. One did have a big vein in his head reconstructed.

<>

They may not want to to remove them but they certainly want to stop brain bleeds.

 

[leVieux]

They may not want to to remove them but they certainly want to stop brain bleeds.

Of course, but continuing bleeds are not the usual problem w/ GSW’s.

 

[WAA]

380ACP and 38 Special are my personal minimum. I recently stopped carrying +P in my LCR, and stopped carrying 357 in my SP101. Reasons being the light weight of the LCR, and the “low flash propellant“ in the Magnum, ain’t.

These are individual choices for each of us, no right or wrong answer.

 

[Sasquatch]

We need to abolish the ATF, the NFA, the GCA, and all other antigun laws, then we can all tote suppressed select fire short carbines of any caliber, along with a few "get the **** off me" grenades for good measure. I personally can't wait until the 9 v 45 debate segways into the "thermite or frag grenade" debate, and the "burst fire or full auto" debate.

 

[leVieux]

Every time I read or hear someone's words about how a shot to a bad guy's chest or to the CNS will stop an attack, I wonder why anyone would believe that because while it may happen often if is not necessarily going to be the case! I was a first hand witness of a patient in the emergency room of Beth Israel Medical Center, in NYC who had been shot in the head with either two bullets or one bullet that split into two big bullet fragments that had lodged in his brain. I was on shift at least 8 hours inside the ER, while this man was in a hospital bed awake, alert and begging for help - most of that time with nurses and doctors ignoring him because they had no clue what to do to help him. After at least a half hour, maybe an hour, one doctor told the nurses to secure him so he could not move because he kept trying, albeit unsuccessfully, to get out of the bed. What were the docs and nurses waiting for - why did they not help him. As I said they were clueless and let me add: no one wanted to injure him further by doing something wrong? They found only a single surgeon who said he would operate and he was in Europe on a ski trip but had promised to be on the first flight to NYC to operate on the guy. That would take most of a day before he could arrive. I was a security guard there and I was told to keep an eye on him. I conversed with him a few times, it was damned eerie. I do not know the outcome, as best I can recall I was not working there more than a couple of days after that because I refused to join the guard's union. I may have been told what was the outcome but damned if I recall; that was in about 1978 or 79.

Of course, there is also this case of an officer involved shooting, I will; not tell you much about it because I figure it is better for you to read the article in which the officer tells much of the story, read it here: https://www.police1.com/officer-shootings/articles/why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/. Let me just say the bad guy was hit many more times than once, several shots hitting his vital bodily organs, and he kept moving and kept shooting at the officer.

In my LE training, I remember there were other cases where a bad guy was shot and kept up his attack. It may not happen often but it does happen, thus blanket statements that being shot with a round in the chest or even in the CNS is going to cause a bad guy to break off an attack are wishful thinking at the very best or all too wrong all too often than one would expect. If you are involved in a defensive shooting - the training I received was to keep firing until the bad guy stops. If one shot does it that is all well and fine but if it takes 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 shots to stop an imminent threat to your life or an imminent threat of serious bodily harm - you need to keep defending yourself. You may want to believe one bullet in his chest may suddenly make him lose interest but if you think - wow no doubt I hit him dead center of his chest so now he most definitely will stop - well, you may be the one who winds up dead when he keeps firing.

<>

Well, lightning could strike an airliner overhead, causing it to fall on you.

Or, your home could be swallowed by a sinkhole, giving you a direct elevator ride to Hell.

Because those things are possible, should we plan for them and prepare ?

No, prudence dictates we prepare for events more likely to occur.

But, you can do as you wish. . . . .

Bonne Chance,

leVieux

<>

 

[G O B]

Just saying...
The .25 in your pocket is better than the .45 you left in the safe.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Every time I read or hear someone's words about how a shot to a bad guy's chest or to the CNS will stop an attack, I wonder why anyone would believe that because while it may happen often if is not necessarily going to be the case! I was a first hand witness of a patient in the emergency room of Beth Israel Medical Center, in NYC who had been shot in the head with either two bullets or one bullet that split into two big bullet fragments that had lodged in his brain. I was on shift at least 8 hours inside the ER, while this man was in a hospital bed awake, alert and begging for help - most of that time with nurses and doctors ignoring him because they had no clue what to do to help him. After at least a half hour, maybe an hour, one doctor told the nurses to secure him so he could not move because he kept trying, albeit unsuccessfully, to get out of the bed. What were the docs and nurses waiting for - why did they not help him. As I said they were clueless and let me add: no one wanted to injure him further by doing something wrong? They found only a single surgeon who said he would operate and he was in Europe on a ski trip but had promised to be on the first flight to NYC to operate on the guy. That would take most of a day before he could arrive. I was a security guard there and I was told to keep an eye on him. I conversed with him a few times, it was damned eerie. I do not know the outcome, as best I can recall I was not working there more than a couple of days after that because I refused to join the guard's union. I may have been told what was the outcome but damned if I recall; that was in about 1978 or 79.

Of course, there is also this case of an officer involved shooting, I will; not tell you much about it because I figure it is better for you to read the article in which the officer tells much of the story, read it here: https://www.police1.com/officer-shootings/articles/why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/. Let me just say the bad guy was hit many more times than once, several shots hitting his vital bodily organs, and he kept moving and kept shooting at the officer.

In my LE training, I remember there were other cases where a bad guy was shot and kept up his attack. It may not happen often but it does happen, thus blanket statements that being shot with a round in the chest or even in the CNS is going to cause a bad guy to break off an attack are wishful thinking at the very best or all too wrong all too often than one would expect. If you are involved in a defensive shooting - the training I received was to keep firing until the bad guy stops. If one shot does it that is all well and fine but if it takes 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 shots to stop an imminent threat to your life or an imminent threat of serious bodily harm - you need to keep defending yourself. You may want to believe one bullet in his chest may suddenly make him lose interest but if you think - wow no doubt I hit him dead center of his chest so now he most definitely will stop - well, you may be the one who winds up dead when he keeps firing.

There are many cases like this, even suicide attempts with handguns dont always work.

My take is this:
All handgun rounds are marginal at best and among the more popular (9, 45 40) there is not significant difference in lethality.

My understanding of data I cant find to post is the single biggest factor among all handgun shootings (22lr up to 44mag) as to the subject living or dying was the number of times the subject was shot. Each hit is a roll of the dice and accuracy or your shots and ability to quickly and accurately place additional rounds on target will always trump raw power among handguns because the lethality difference is too marginal for it to be a signifigant factor except in a few edge cases.

Finally, carrying ANYTHING is better than nothing and I'd take a 22lr Ruger MkII over a 44mag simply for the speed and accuracy of follow up shots.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

 

[zackmars]

Just saying...
The .25 in your pocket is better than the .45 you left in the safe.

That's highly debatable

 

[cycleguy2300]

That's highly debatable

Depends on how far away that safe is!

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

 

[Hoji]

The Beretta .22 in your pocket is exponentially better than whatever 9mm/.45/.357 etc you left at home

 

[leVieux]

Just saying...
The .25 in your pocket is better than the .45 you left in the safe.

Exactly!

I once learned it the HARD way !

<>

 

[oldag]

Just saying...
The .25 in your pocket is better than the .45 you left in the safe.

And the .45 on my hip is better than a.25 in my pocket.

 

[oldag]

The Beretta .22 in your pocket is exponentially better than whatever 9mm/.45/.357 etc you left at home

Straw man argument. False logic.

I carry a .45 when I go out. I do not have to choose between carrying a .22 and leaving a .45 home.