Help with my AR 15

[Das Jared]

It was settled.. it was proven it was improperly staked with photographic evidence and side by side comparisons. If the manufacturer is even replacing it and taking care of it, that is even more evidence that it was/is improperly staked from factory.

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[robertc1024]

Ok, since there obviously is a difference of opinion on them being properly staked, is there any way to test them? Not only for this thread but for future reference.

Will an Allen wrench settle it? If it will not turn out is that good enough? Is that more or less stress than it will have to endure during firing?

I have always believed that a wrench shouldn't remove the screw and that is staked enough. Loc Tite will not hold them in and I know I can remove a Loc Tited screw with a wrench.

I am just curious here. There are many different levels of being staked properly. If it holds then it is staked properly. I am all for overkill on a defensive weapon but is there a proper way to test it? Does the internal head of the screw have to be damaged to be good enough? I do not believe so but it is apparent that some people do.

Good questions. All I can say is the way mine are staked, I'd bet my life they'd never come out. Loctite will melt with heat. I did tests on it years ago where taking it through temperature cycles, it cracks, starts leaking (in a pressure application) and fails. I've got hundreds of examples. A mechanical lock - like staking or wiring a bolt won't come loose. I helped re-build a Ferrari V12 years ago where all of the carb bolts were safety wired. Done right, they'd never, ever come loose.

 

[40Arpent]

You do know reading comprehension is part of reading

You gonna show me where i incorreclty comprehended?

 

[sonuvaTXgun]

Well shit. All this talk about properly and improperly staked bolt carriers is starting to make me want to rush home and check mine. Dammmit.

 

[TundraWookiee]

Loctite will melt with heat. I did tests on it years ago where taking it through temperature cycles, it cracks, starts leaking (in a pressure application) and fails.

Of course it does...it was designed to. Its an anaerobic polymer that is meant to increase friction and fill the gaps in metal to metal contact without being a permanent solution. If you dont want something to ever come apart then it should be welded.

I know nothing about staking but by pictures alone it seems evident. Glad you got it taken care of and some good advice.

Sent from Kate Beckinsale's closet.

 

[BIGPAPIGREG]

We are hardly that bad

Yes you are Bigun......don't fight it

 

[Dawico]

It was settled.. it was proven it was improperly staked with photographic evidence and side by side comparisons. If the manufacturer is even replacing it and taking care of it, that is even more evidence that it was/is improperly staked from factory.

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I disagree. Is it less staked than the other examples? Yes it is. That doesn't prove anything besides you get what you pay for.

The manufacturer sending a new part to replace it proves nothing either. Corporations do things like this all the time just to make their customers happy.

Until it fails or someone puts a wrench to it then it is staked good enough. All it has to do is keep the screws from turning and that doesn't take much.

Don't get me wrong, it may not hold. I don't have it in my hand to test. But just because it doesn't look like the more expensive staking jobs doesn't mean it won't hold.

 

[dustycorgill]

Didn't mean to start a war here guys. But......DPMS is sending a new BCG to me. I did however take mine up to the LGS (B&S Guns) in Garland and they looked at it and owner, who has always taken good care of me told me to hold on a minute. He told the gunsmith to take it back, and put a bunch of rounds through it. After what seemed to be 3 mag changes later, he came back out and said that he tried to turn the screws after the test firing and they would not turn. Now, does that constitute being staked good enough? I dont know. But I think I am going to say screw it and have the gunsmith there restake it so it bites into the heads of the screws more.

Now......here is the kicker. While there me and one of the guys that works there pulled a Colt, Bushmaster, Sig, and a Wyndham Weaponry AR off the rack. Broke them all down and the ONLY one that was staked better than what mine was when I got it back from the factory was the Sig. The Colt wasnt anywhere near biting into the head of the screw and neither was any of the others. So........bad QC all the way around?

 

[Blind Sniper]

Dusty, just for kicks, ask that smith if he used a torque wrench when he tested your screws. According to the technical manual I have, 35-40 inch-pounds is the mil-spec torque value. If it meets that, I'd say you're good to go.

FWIW, the representations of "proper" staking in this manual aren't even close to as aggressive as most of the pictures in this thread. May be a tad more aggressive than what's in the OP, but not by much.

 

[Das Jared]

I disagree. Is it less staked than the other examples? Yes it is. That doesn't prove anything besides you get what you pay for.

The manufacturer sending a new part to replace it proves nothing either. Corporations do things like this all the time just to make their customers happy.

Until it fails or someone puts a wrench to it then it is staked good enough. All it has to do is keep the screws from turning and that doesn't take much.

Don't get me wrong, it may not hold. I don't have it in my hand to test. But just because it doesn't look like the more expensive staking jobs doesn't mean it won't hold.

If the staking does not extend into the bolts, and in this case, doesn't even TOUCH the bolts, it is improperly staked.

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[40Arpent]

So........bad QC all the way around?

IMO, yup.

 

[dustycorgill]

I will ask tomorrow night about the torque wrench. As far as QC goes....I guess the Colt, Wyndham, and Bushmaster would all be sent back according to the standards most expect?

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[40Arpent]

As far as QC goes....I guess the Colt, Wyndham, and Bushmaster would all be sent back according to the standards most expect?

Well, since I have a MOACKS tools, I'd have just fixed it myself.

 

[Das Jared]

Dusty, you really outa go get yourself a BCM complete rifle. You really will be amazed at the quality difference in the parts and assembly between that and a bushy, rra, dpms, wyndham, ect.

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[Shorts]

IMO, not properly staked. It is a bit light and just needs to be deepened. The displaced metal from the key should pinch the screw head. A combination of friction and physical barrier of the divot is what holds the screw. Think of a stake doing the job that a lock washer does.

Someone said MOACKS - I agree, DIY.

As for the 'smith firing it and trying to back out the screws. Doesn't really tell anything. It takes more torque to break a fastener than what the torque was stopped at when it was installed. It isn't just getting the part warm for several mags. It is the repeated cycling and vibration of recoil over the course of life of the part/rifle that can back the screws out. So, it's a more long term proposition than anything else.

Anyway, good to see DPMS sending you a new carrier. Hopefully it is good to go. If not, MOACKS.

Here is my WW

Here is the other one (BCM or Noveske)

 

[Shorts]

Didn't mean to start a war here guys. But......DPMS is sending a new BCG to me. I did however take mine up to the LGS (B&S Guns) in Garland and they looked at it and owner, who has always taken good care of me told me to hold on a minute. He told the gunsmith to take it back, and put a bunch of rounds through it. After what seemed to be 3 mag changes later, he came back out and said that he tried to turn the screws after the test firing and they would not turn. Now, does that constitute being staked good enough? I dont know. But I think I am going to say screw it and have the gunsmith there restake it so it bites into the heads of the screws more.

Now......here is the kicker. While there me and one of the guys that works there pulled a Colt, Bushmaster, Sig, and a Wyndham Weaponry AR off the rack. Broke them all down and the ONLY one that was staked better than what mine was when I got it back from the factory was the Sig. The Colt wasnt anywhere near biting into the head of the screw and neither was any of the others. So........bad QC all the way around?

Yes. Doesn't matter the rollmark on the side, QC isn't doing their job if they let them get through that way. The most venerable of companies screw up because it is humans/human error that provide QC. If they are lazy or ambivalent, sub par products get through.

I've seen photos of terrible Colt staking jobs. And Sig, well, after a few things from them on their pistol line up I KNOW they let stuff through that should have been in the trash bin. Like I said, human error for whatever the motivation may be.

 

[dustycorgill]

Dusty, you really outa go get yourself a BCM complete rifle. You really will be amazed at the quality difference in the parts and assembly between that and a bushy, rra, dpms, wyndham, ect.

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I plan on my next one being a build. I am planning to use BCM parts and maybe even some of the Black Rain Ordance stuff as well.

 

[dustycorgill]

IMO, not properly staked. It is a bit light and just needs to be deepened. The displaced metal from the key should pinch the screw head. A combination of friction and physical barrier of the divot is what holds the screw. Think of a stake doing the job that a lock washer does.

Someone said MOACKS - I agree, DIY.

As for the 'smith firing it and trying to back out the screws. Doesn't really tell anything. It takes more torque to break a fastener than what the torque was stopped at when it was installed. It isn't just getting the part warm for several mags. It is the repeated cycling and vibration of recoil over the course of life of the part/rifle that can back the screws out. So, it's a more long term proposition than anything else.

Anyway, good to see DPMS sending you a new carrier. Hopefully it is good to go. If not, MOACKS.

Here is my WW

Here is the other one (BCM or Noveske)

Thanks Shorts. I went and looked at the MOACK website. Man I wish I knew someone that had one of these staking tools that lived in or near DFW. But if I have to break down and buy one I will.

 

[cbigclarke]

Amazon.com: AR-15 Gas Key for bolt carrier with grade 8 fasteners for BCG AR15: Sports & Outdoors

 

[Shorts]

Thanks Shorts. I went and looked at the MOACK website. Man I wish I knew someone that had one of these staking tools that lived in or near DFW. But if I have to break down and buy one I will.

You're welcome. Yeah, they are a little pricey if you only need it for one job. I can see the cost if you are building a lot of rifles or shooting a lot to replace the gas key often that you need it regularly.

Now you technically can still use the old fashioned method of punch and hammer to get those stakes done. The tricky part is holding the carrier secure enough and keeping the punch tip to stay where you need it. I suppose the fact that there are punch divots already it that they would be easier to finish out than if starting from a fresh gas key. I haven't tried that myself, but I imagine you need a few sets of hands or a good vise and complimentary jaws to help you do the job.