Handgun Induced Trauma

[jocat54]

I've watched the shows, and heard all of the aurguments...but seeing a 350 lb mountain lion rolled completely over 2 times when it was shot with a Ruger Blackhawk in .45LC from about 15 yeards was all I needed to see. And that was BEFORE the reaction to the pain...that was just the cat knocked over...

THEN it wanted to fight. Another shot, this one to the head, took that option away...

A big piece of lead that flattens out into a BIGGER piece of lead tends to make things stop, sit up and take notice before they get the second hit, or bleed out from the first.

I dunno know, but that would probably be the world record for a Mountain Lion, usually weigh 80 to 150 lb depending upon gender. Maybe a Tall Texas Tale. LOL.

John

 

[M. Sage]

I dunno know, but that would probably be the world record for a Mountain Lion, usually weigh 80 to 150 lb depending upon gender. Maybe a Tall Texas Tale. LOL.

John

It also fails at Newtonian physics...

 

[Texas42]

I don't think I'd want to deal with a 40 lbs moutain Lion.

 

[M. Sage]

I don't think I'd want to deal with a 40 lbs moutain Lion.

A pissed-off 10lb house cat is more than I want to deal with. Rather have a dog 6x as big come at me.

 

[ryantx23]

My two HD weapons are a Mossberg 500 with a 1.5oz HP Slug in the barrel and 5 000buck in the tube, and a 1911. I plan on lots of big holes if someone comes through my door. I agree that most people cant handle the 12Ga but practice helps. With my pump 500 have have beaten Benelli semi's with both Speed and accuracy.

You must have been through one of Bill Davidson's classes? I've been around guns for a long time and I've had lots of training, but I've never seen anybody work a pump shotgun like the englishman. That being said, it would take a stud with a pump shotgun to be able to put more rounds on target faster than me with my Benelli M1 Super 90 tactical. I'm not saying it couldn't be done but my hat would be off to them and I'd be buying them a beer.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

You must have been through one of Bill Davidson's classes? I've been around guns for a long time and I've had lots of training, but I've never seen anybody work a pump shotgun like the englishman. That being said, it would take a stud with a pump shotgun to be able to put more rounds on target faster than me with my Benelli M1 Super 90 tactical. I'm not saying it couldn't be done but my hat would be off to them and I'd be buying them a beer.

Not a pump, but still. Hand held flak gun. lol

 

[Huntindoc]

Ok, Here is the deal:
Knockdown power is a myth.
In handgun rounds, the only thing that matters is what you hit and the size of the permanent wound channel. Either you disrupt the central nervous system (Brain, Spinal cord), peripheral nervous system (hit a major, motor nerve), bony support (break the pelvis or femur) or you cause enough rapid blood loss to prevent perfusion of the brain and thereby induce unconsciousness.
Temporary wound channels are for rifle rounds generally exceeding 2000fps or moderate to large caliber handgun rounds fired at contact distance.
Shotguns (particularly 20 and 12g) with virtually any shotshell will physically remove meat and bone at distances found within the home.

Effect on animals do not equal effect on humans. Many animals hit with any of numerous projectiles jump and flip in the air only to land on their feet and run. It is a defense mechanism and not due to the impact energy of the projectiles. Have you ever scared someone only to have them physically jump and run in place?? Same deal.

 

[Gilgondorin]

This is going to hold true with handguns, too. 500 S&W is simply too damn much gun to be a good first choice for self defense against human beings, and I doubt I'll find any argument about that. Going too big is going to make it too expensive to practice much, and the recoil is going to make any practice you have "not fun", curtailing it further.

Hee hee... Now is when the clouds part, the wind blows the grasses over, and I come wandering down the mountainside.

See, my friend has a .500 S&W that he bought some years ago when he got the opportunity to afford one real cheap like. He said it mauled one of his friends who fired it policeman style; when it came back, the rear sight hit him in the forehead and the front-sight hit him in the back of the head, so when everything was said and done his buddy was left with horribly stinging hands and two [minor] flesh wounds on his head (consequently he was heartily laughed at when they established that his pride was hurt more than his scalp was).

This he told to me on the eve of the day we went shooting with our respective dads; he wanted me to shoot it at least once, but when the hour of judgement came, I was shaking like fish in a net on the inside. I'm by no means an amateur with general gun theory, so I was especially disconcerted by the fact that his had a 4" and not even an 8" barrel. He's 5'5" and weighs 120 lbs, and that's with him holding the 5 lb. gun; when he fired it, he didn't really bother trying to hit anything and even then it staggered him a pace or two backwards.

We brought a small pumpkin (left over from Halloween) with us to shoot. I set it up on the berm, but he said not to bother because as my first time shooting a .50 chambering in my life, my priority should have been just holding onto the gun rather than hitting anything. Attached is the end result, with a dollar bill for comparison (primarily to show my friends, who love guns but don't get to shoot them). The hole in the back is even bigger. Not believing my luck, I instantly got cocky, and promptly handed him $13 to give me another 3 shells plus the one I'd just fired. I fired 1 one-handed to see if I could manage that, then loaded the remaining 2 and double-tapped a phone book we were using as a target.

I've never considered a .500 as a viable self-defense option (I still don't -- the gun weighs too much for IWB carry!! ), but it sure feels good to know that I'm one of the like, 12 people in the United States that COULD concealed carry a .500S&W behind Chuck Norris and some linebackers from the NFL!

 

[ROGER4314]

Argue lethality, shock , knockdown or energy transfer all you want. The fact remains that a HIT with a .22LR is much more effective than a MISS with a .44 magnum! Been shot several times and took one in the right shoulder with a .22LR. Those mean little bastards will ruin your flipping day!

Flash

 

[Hankster]

Hi Skip,

Much of what you say is in conflict with the 1989 FBI study, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

 

[TheRealT-Dawg]

I personally run Federal HST 147 gr. JHP through my XDm 3.8 Compact. First reason i choose 147 gr is from experimenting with 115, 124, 147 (all standard pressure) and concluding that im much more accurate with it and I can control the Muzzle flip and recoil better than the other to weights... which is important across any board. Secondly, 147 tends to penetrate deeper than the other 2 loads (in general). I specifically went with this because from what i researched, federal HST is probably the best for the money in that specific bullet weight.

For HD, i have a Winchester 1300 loaded with regular old 2 3/4 inch .00-Buck... 1 in the chamber and the tube filled... i also have a Winchester SXP Defender lying around as a second option.

I am for the whole "shot placement" philosophy. I love .45 and .40, but i chose 9mm because im more efficient with it in terms of defensive/combat style shooting... not to mention, with modern technology in todays 9mm HP, 9mm is more on par with the bigger rounds from what ive researched

and thats my 2 cent

 

[Simox]

Secondly, major hunting calibers like .44 and .50 caliber magnums have no place on the street. Excessive carry-through will endanger secondary targets. Recoil and muzzle blast slow down multiple shot recovery times. Finally, the last thing you want is to face a criminal or civil jury, having justifiably stopped your attacker with a weapon that “paints” you to look like Dirty Harry! From a legal standpoint.
Civilians should always carry calibers and loadings used by local Police Departments. Trust me on this! .38 Special: The grand-daddy of all handgun rounds has been and remains quite effective if the correct loads are carried. Forget the ultra light 95 grain loads supposedly for 2” wheel guns; they do not exhibit acceptable penetration. Most effective is the 158 grain soft lead “Keith” (semi wadcutter) bullet hollow point. It opens nicely, and has logged a stopping ration of 78% in +P loadings. Once again, for the “little” guns, carry pre-fragmented rounds. These push the stopping percentages of .38 Spl. To over 85%.
9MM: “Nothing could be finer than a gunfight with my niner”. Definitely one of the most popular calibers today, it should be loaded with 124 grain defensive hollow points, preferably +P. NEVER carry 9MM hardball. The pointed ogive bullet just does not work! Avoid the light (95 & 110 grain loads) and forget about the “sub-sonic” rounds. These were developed for suppressed submachine guns to eliminate the sonic crack and just plain do not work on the street unless you are carrying an Uzi or HK class-III. Correct 9MM has logged an impressive 82% stopping ratio in literally thousands of recorded incidents.
.40: Quite literally the “hula-hoop” of the handgun world in the mid 80’s, this round is the result of compromising the 10MM which had been adopted by the FBI and was found to be too powerful for many agents to master. S&W had literally thousands of service automatics chambered for this round and engineered a shorter case and less powder to utilize the existing components by trimming the barrel throat. Thus was born the .40. It has proven an effective round in HP configuration, and is showing a stopping percentage equivalent to the 9MM +P HP in 124 grain loadings. What the .40 gains in mass and diameter, it loses in velocity to the 9MM.
.45 ACP: In a word, one of the most effective fight-stoppers on the street! Forget the lightweight HPs. The .45 ACP works due to mass (230 grains) and diameter of the bullet. It is really interesting to note that in the 230 grain loading, the rounds 87% stopping ratio is identical in either HP or hardball.
.357 Magnum: In 125 grain hollow point, this round has been and remains the best fight-stopper in the field. The 110 grain loads are too light and break up shallow in-vivo, failing to provide the required penetration. The 158 grain loads are basically medium-game hunting loads and over penetrate. The 125 grain jacketed hollow point in .357 has recorded an impressive 97% stopping ration; a fact I can personally attest to!
For the record, there is not enough data on the .357 Sig auto-round as of yet. I am sure it is quite effective, especially in 125 grain HP. I also remember seeing quite a few Sigs with cracked frames in the 90’s when I was in the gun business; it may just be too hot a load for carry-sized semis.
Lastly, carrying handloads on the street is a one-way ticket to HUGE civil litigation, even if there is no criminal liability. Those of us who lawfully go armed MUST accept the fact that anytime we shoot another human being, we will end up in court. Lack of criminal liability does not preclude civil liability. I have done numerous Expert Witness and Material Witness cases involving armed citizens and could fill another 5 pages with facts and data on this issue.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the idea of ending up in court should be enough for people to use guns more carefully but in some twisted ways some folks believe jail can't be worse than their own lifes. Probably people in financial distress or sick.

 

[V-Tach]

No disrespect Simox, but that is painful to read.....

Have you ever thought of using something called paragraphs?

 

[itchin]

It is really interesting to note that in the 230 grain loading, the rounds 87% stopping ratio is identical in either HP or hardball.

Interesting, if true. I feel good about hoarding bulk .45.

 

[M. Sage]

Interesting, if true. I feel good about hoarding bulk .45.

It's not. From the text, it sounds like the number comes from one of those bullshit "let's calculate the stop percentage by diameter vs weight vs velocity" things.

I know someone who put two rounds of .45 center of mass on a guy and would probably be dead now if it weren't for the fact that one of the shots hit the guy's forearm on the way to his torso and basically took the muscles in his forearm off the bone, which meant the dude couldn't hold the rifle anymore. It was a lucky hit.

One shot went through the guy's chest, actually exited out the back (and was found nearby, so it didn't have much velocity left). Scumbag is still sucking air and eating food that we pay for.

 

[Dcav]

Fixed it a bit got rid of the horrid blue. Massad Ayoob wrote that IIRC, you might want to add that.

 

[Glockster69]

No disrespect Simox, but that is painful to read.....

Have you ever thought of using something called paragraphs?

To be fair he did a copy/paste and for whatever reason that regularly removes the *return* and piles it all together.

 

[majormadmax]

To be fair he did a copy/paste and for whatever reason that regularly removes the *return* and piles it all together.

So manually edit it to be readable, that's what most people do!

And if it's referencing someone else's writing (Starting off with "Secondly" is a clue that it is), then source it. Don't post something as if it's your own words when you're quoting someone else.

Plus, the comment "major hunting calibers like .44 and .50 caliber magnums have no place on the street" turned me off from reading the rest of it. People should be able to carry whatever caliber they want, this sounds like some of the liberal bullshit Feinstein and crew are spouting.

The FBI wounding effectiveness study that Travis posted is my usual reference in these discussions. There are two great statements in that report that people should focus on. First, the one about "Probably more people in this country have been killed by .22 rimfires than all other calibers combined" demonstrates the lethality of any caliber, but the one that causes the most deaths isn't necessary the most lethal if you catch my drift.

Secondly, the conclusion states that "Given reliable and desirable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of the hole made by the bullet. Any bullet that will not penetrate through vital organs fron less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

We all know the pros and cons of each handgun caliber (size, power, recoil, rounds carried, etc) and in the end it comes down to personal choice as to what to carry. I prefer the .45 for personal reasons, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't use a 9mm or even a .380 if that's what's available. Hell, I'd even use a .22 if it was my only option, as anything is better than nothing; but it's best to be prepared and that means determining which handgun and round works best for you!

Cheers! M2

 

[M. Sage]

Oh, Massad Ayoob? I have some problems with his "carry exactly what the police carry or you might go to jail!" claim. Mainly that he's never backed that claim up with a single verifiable case of that happening.

I'm still waiting for any well-done study that shows you have an 80%+ chance of a single-hit stop on anybody with any firearm that isn't psychologically-based. Hint: There isn't one. In fact, evidence suggests that most stops, including the ones where the attacker takes multiple hits, are psychologically-based. The number of people who soak up 5-10 hits and than walk to the ambulance is amazingly high.

 

[TXARGUY]

Ha, reading through this thread brings back memories. West Texas, whatever happened with that guy?