Handgun Induced Trauma

[Bithabus]

A handgun round can knock someone down and not knock the person firing the gun down. Momentum is not the only force involved in a situation like this. if i throw a brick at your head as hard as i can its not going to knock me down but the "shock force" of the impact can still knock you down. With ammo that expands rapidly on impact you have "shock forces" as well as Cavitation that increase the energy that is transfered into the object being hit. Look at the effect this HP round has on the ballistic Gel in this video. the expanding pocket in the gel is what is known as cavitation and it increases the the force in front of and surrounding the round. YouTube - Hollow Point Bullet Through Gelatine

A handgun round cannot knock someone down. A handgun round may cause someone to fall down, from a variety of intermediate causes, but the bullet has not pushed the person to the ground.

 

[Jaywendland1981]

It takes a ridiculous amount of FPS for a bullet to knock someone down, i'm sure weve all watched lock n load. In the handguns/pistols episode he shoots numerous rounds at ballistics gel. The only one to actually "move" the ballistics gel (and by move i mean sent that shit flying) was the 44 mag. Recorded at 1400+ fps, even knocked R lee ermey on his ass shooting it. Heres the link, go to 7:00 or so for the 44mag. YouTube - lock n load pistols clip3.avi

 

[SIG_Fiend]

The only thing that causes people to fall down when shot is the psychological factor. For some people, their psychological response to such trauma is to fall down. It is 100% psychological. The problem is, people will fool you, and you can never count on the psychological factor. For every 100 people that will fall over and curl into a ball, there will be that one A-type personality that just shrugs it off and keeps fighting. This is why you need to physically disable someone as quickly and effectively as possible. Self defense shootings are a roll of the dice at best as you can't really choose your attacker. What you can choose is YOUR response to the threat. Have good quality ammo and a good quality gun that will run reliably so you can gain whatever edge on the hardware side of things. Train to be able to make accurate shot placement as fast as possible, and to keep that gun running in less than desirable conditions (the software side). Shoot them to the ground, if that doesn't work or if things go wrong, don't give up and fight as long and hard and dirty as you have to. The only thing you can count on is yourself, not your gun, not your super duper hyper exploder nuclear api ammo, not your high tech tacti-cool defensive techniques, not your Japanese gunkata mall ninjary karate method, and not the psychological inferiority of your opponent. Anyone that thinks that any one specific piece of hardware or software, other than the psychological aspect, is the be all and end all should ask themselves how they think people have been fighting, killing, and winning for centuries without most of that modern hardware and software. It is good to gain any technological edge over your opponent wherever possible, but we are nothing without a strong mind.

 

[Bithabus]

The only thing that causes people to fall down when shot is the psychological factor.

Shooting someone in the spine with a handgun will cause them to fall down.

 

[M. Sage]

Shooting someone in the spine with a handgun will cause them to fall down.

Deep penetration is the only way to accomplish that without having the grand jury ask some very pointed questions later on.

Think about physiology. You hit someone center of mass. You've got stuff like the heart, sure but even a heart shot isn't a guaranteed stopper. People can live for several minutes after being hit through the heart. But behind it... You've got the descending aorta flanking the spine. Hit the descending aorta, you increase blood loss even after a heart hit. Hit that spine and what you describe happens. Even hitting near the spine can be enough because nerves are packed tight into bundles as you get closer to it. Just ask anybody who's had sciatica. I can personally vouch for the fact that mere pressure on these bundles can cause your limbs to not operate properly at the least. Put a bullet through one and they're going to suffer partial paralysis and probably the worst pain you could ever imagine.

I didn't see this thread until today and have to tell you that the article in the OP sounds like bunk to me. I've done way too much reading on terminal ballistics and I can tell you that "energy transfer" is not a wounding factor. Want to know what stops a fight? The only way to instantly stop a fight against someone who is committed heart and soul, mind and body to destroying you is with a hit to the central nervous system. I don't care if it's brainpan or high spine, that's what it's going to take. Punching holes in internal organs that do enough damage to cause them to stop due to pain or pure physical damage is the most likely method you'll encounter. One way to do this is to hit the pelvis, causing it to break. If your enemy is still armed with a gun, he/she can still be a threat (if they have ungodly high pain tolerance and/or are higher than the ISS), but at least their mobility will be severely limited. The other way is by putting multiple holes in a person, which will not only increase the damage done, but increase your chances of hitting an immediately vital structure like the spine, or damaging enough organs or muscles to prevent the assailant to continue.

Fact: Handgun bullets do not have enough energy to do anything terribly interesting to a body. They punch holes, period. To get other effects, you need a rifle caliber with a minimum velocity of about 2000 feet per second. That's when cavitation really becomes a factor in tissue damage and organ destruction. This is the so-called "hydrostatic shock" so many tout. And not all rifles are capable - the .30 carbine doesn't have the oomph (right at about 1900 fps at the muzzle in an M1) to do anything other than punch neat little holes. I call it a handgun cartridge because of this. There are exceptions to this rule, mainly big bores, even at low velocities. A shotgun slug at 1800 FPS will cavitate like a motherfucker. I can attest to that from personal experience hunting white tail and ballistics gelatin tests bear it out. I'm thinking the "why" is that cavitation is probably linked to aerodynamic (hydrodynamic in this case) coefficient of drag, especially frontal area. Anybody who's ever listened to a 1 oz slug hissing its angry way downrange has a good idea of how much area that slug has on the nose...

But why use hollowpoints in handguns then? Because so long as they don't impede penetration, they increase your odds of hitting something vital and/or doing enough damage to end the fight. Bigger holes are better as a general rule. As a nice side benefit, they decelerate the bullet enough that if/when it exits the bad guy it shouldn't have enough energy to kill someone else. Total penetration of the target is not over-penetration.

To sum up: The right amount of penetration (12"-16" in ballistic gelatin) gives you not only a margin of error for shooting through things like arms and bones to reach vitals, it gives you a chance at more vitals on the way through the torso. Some structures and organs are more important than others. Bigger holes have better chances of hitting stuff. More holes have better chances of hitting stuff.

Shoot the bad guy into the dirt. One-shot stops with defensive pistols are extremely rare and more often than not involve more luck than skill and are almost always completely unrelated to equipment.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Texas1911 has the pic and I think the details. Recently we saw from a customer a 9mm JHP (I think 147gr) that expanded to .965"! Yes, that's almost 1 INCH in diameter.

 

[M. Sage]

Texas1911 has the pic and I think the details. Recently we saw from a customer a 9mm JHP (I think 147gr) that expanded to .965"! Yes, that's almost 1 INCH in diameter.

Did he shoot it into water? Water causes extreme expansion. Pretty doubtful that a 9mm is going to penetrate very deep after expanding that far.

 

[texas skeeter]

We do not fire on an assailant to kill or wound, selectively. We shoot to “neutralize” the threat to our lives.

it is ONLY because of Lawsuits and Political Correctness these days that this verbage above has to be used. back in the day it was, "Shoot to Kill"!!

 

[Texas1911]

Did he shoot it into water? Water causes extreme expansion. Pretty doubtful that a 9mm is going to penetrate very deep after expanding that far.

It was a Gold Dot out of a .357 SIG.

 

[M. Sage]

It was a Gold Dot out of a .357 SIG.

Question stands. I'm skeptical of expansion that big from that caliber in "real" mediums. Water on the other hand...

 

[MR Redneck]

The fragmentation rounds aren't going to penetrate much in a human, but ... they are going to leave a big mess when they hit.

I know this from seeing and shooting critters with RBCDs. They just blow up, whereas a traditional JHP pokes a hole in them.

I still do not recommend RBCD, Glaser Safety Slugs, etc. for personal defense unless the person lives in an apartment complex. The likelihood of striking another person is much higher, so I will give them a brief mention, but at the same time I reinforce that training and accounting for all your shots is superior to relying upon a frangible ammo choice.

This should be Chisle'd in Stone.
Shot placement is the best defense. Ammo, I dont care for all the fancy dancy crap. My 12 gauge I carry around, well the first round in it is a bag round. If that dont work, their 15 more rounds of buckshot ready to come out of it. I often question myself about the bag round, but I think its a good idea for property defence. As for Cartels BS, I'll jack that round out and get on with the other stuff.
Handguns I carry 1911's with JHP. I play with FMJ's. I have shot with lots of people and honestly feel like I got the stuff! I get negative comments about my posture and style of shooting, but I cant shoot worth a crap doing it the way the "Instructors" teach. Im confident in my shot placement doing it the way I have developed. How many people do you know that can get a nail all their targets shooting a 45 with one hand? I can. I have also had people tell me time and time again you need to use both hand!!
Carrying a gun, shooting a gun, and just simple having any desire at all the use on for defense some be reason enough for people to take the time to learn how to shoot well.
Ammo, I use what will get the job done because I make sure I can hit what im shooting at. Ammo will never make a shooter who lacks skill any safer.

 

[texas skeeter]

their 15 more rounds of buckshot ready to come out of it.

oh PLEASE do post a pic of this shotgun with the 10ft mag tube!!!!!!!

 

[M. Sage]

This should be Chisle'd in Stone.
Shot placement is the best defense. Ammo, I dont care for all the fancy dancy crap. My 12 gauge I carry around, well the first round in it is a bag round. If that dont work, their 15 more rounds of buckshot ready to come out of it. I often question myself about the bag round, but I think its a good idea for property defence. As for Cartels BS, I'll jack that round out and get on with the other stuff.
Handguns I carry 1911's with JHP. I play with FMJ's. I have shot with lots of people and honestly feel like I got the stuff! I get negative comments about my posture and style of shooting, but I cant shoot worth a crap doing it the way the "Instructors" teach. Im confident in my shot placement doing it the way I have developed. How many people do you know that can get a nail all their targets shooting a 45 with one hand? I can. I have also had people tell me time and time again you need to use both hand!!
Carrying a gun, shooting a gun, and just simple having any desire at all the use on for defense some be reason enough for people to take the time to learn how to shoot well.
Ammo, I use what will get the job done because I make sure I can hit what im shooting at. Ammo will never make a shooter who lacks skill any safer.

I can hit a target with my .45 just fine using one hand. It's just that I can dump a whole mag into a small area of that target very quickly if I use both hands. Yes, even a .45 is going to likely require multiple hits to stop an attacker.

16 rounds in your shotgun? What is it, a Saiga? Or do you have those Aguila mini shell things (wouldn't recommend them for self defense)?

 

[Texas42]

Side saddle rounds maybe?

 

[Clockwork]

.357 Magnum: In 125 grain hollow point, this round has been and remains the best fight-stopper in the field. The 110 grain loads are too light and break up shallow in-vivo, failing to provide the required penetration. The 158 grain loads are basically medium-game hunting loads and over penetrate. The 125 grain jacketed hollow point in .357 has recorded an impressive 97% stopping ration; a fact I can personally attest to! For the record, there is not enough data on the .357 Sig auto-round as of yet. I am sure it is quite effective, especially in 125 grain HP. I also remember seeing quite a few Sigs with cracked frames in the 90’s when I was in the gun business; it may just be too hot a load for carry-sized semis.

I had heard that the 357 SIG was one of the best out there for human targets, is there any truth to that? The original post simply says that there is not enough data for it.

I was looking at getting a Glock 32 (357 SIG Compact) for exactly that reason because I love my Glock 19 for its size and the way it feels in my hand but the 357 SIG, while being the same size, is supposed to have a lot more stopping power than a 9x19... and I just don't like .40 enough to buy a Glock 23. I've also read somewhere that Glocks in the .40 flavor have feeding problems when a light/laser is added to the rail, and I very much want to havea TLR-2s on my weapon.

 

[Bithabus]

If high velocity is what you want instead of a new gun get some +P+ ammo for your G19.

Ammunition To Go : 50rds - 9mm Winchester Ranger 115gr. +P+ HP Ammo [RA9115HP+] - $29.95

Unless you're looking for an excuse to get a new gun . In that case, if you get the 32 you can buy a .40 barrel and have access to both calibers!

 

[SIG_Fiend]

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I had heard that the 357 SIG was one of the best out there for human targets, is there any truth to that? The original post simply says that there is not enough data for it.

I was looking at getting a Glock 32 (357 SIG Compact) for exactly that reason because I love my Glock 19 for its size and the way it feels in my hand but the 357 SIG, while being the same size, is supposed to have a lot more stopping power than a 9x19... and I just don't like .40 enough to buy a Glock 23. I've also read somewhere that Glocks in the .40 flavor have feeding problems when a light/laser is added to the rail, and I very much want to havea TLR-2s on my weapon.

It has a little more power, so yes it is more effective but, for a lot of people that few percent of performance is not worth the significant increase in recoil and muzzle flip. Honestly, it's still just a pistol round, so it's anemic by default. The .357 Sig is a little less so, but it's not exactly a .44 Magnum or something. Again, get good quality JHP's, put the bullets where they are supposed to go, and keep shooting until the threat stops. You can do that just fine with a 9mm. There is no magic handgun round out there, and the whole "one shot stop" thing is an urban myth. It may take one shot, or you may have that one in a million bastard that just won't quit and takes 35 rounds plus a headshot to put down. There have been crazier cases of attackers/criminals taking 50+ hits from various pistol and rifle calibers and fighting through most of it, and in some cases even SURVIVING. You know what, I'm going to put this topic to rest. Here you go:

WARNING GRAPHIC, DO NOT WATCH IF YOU ARE SQUEAMISH THERE IS EXTREME GORE!

LiveLeak.com - Policeman 'cut in half' after accident talks to camera man *VERY GRAPHIC*

Take a look at that. There's a guy that just got ripped in f*cking half from the waist down by a dump truck. Guess what? HE'S STILL CONSCIOUS AND MOVING AROUND! Yeah, that guy is dead now, but he was still a little bit active after suffering trauma on the most massive scale. Can anyone honestly watch a video like that and still argue that poking a 1 or 2mm larger hole and maybe a couple hundred FPS faster is going to make any meaningful difference? It's far more important to know how to run your gun and be able to consistently get as many rounds on target as fast as possible. Yes, videos like that are gross to watch but, you know what, it should be encouraging too. Watching those things should empower us all and make us realize that, even if you get shot, even if you get stabbed, even if you get seriously injured in any other way, know that you are physically capable of fighting through it and making the bastard(s) pay if you just put your mind to it.

 

[Clockwork]

Good advice, thanks!

 

[Wolfwood]

even if you get shot, even if you get stabbed, even if you get seriously injured in any other way, know that you are physically capable of fighting through it and making the bastard(s) pay if you just put your mind to it.

that is the attitude im looking for.

 

[ROGER4314]

My friend "G" was married to a guy who was confined to a wheelchair. They split up but she still came by to help him pretty regularly. One day, he asked her to come over and he shot her twice- once in each breast with a 25 auto. One bullet left her chest and imbedded in her arm. She was still able to turn him away from her in the chair and wrestle for the gun. She survived and still carries the bullets. A note was found that stated that he intended to kill her so he was convicted, was sent to prison where he later died.

Yes, you can fight even though wounded. I've been shot and can testify to that myself. Had I been given the opportunity to fight, I could have done so but I'm just a scrappy SOB. In fact, I later pulled the bullet (.22) out of my shoulder with tweezers and a pocket knife. When I was hit, it felt like a big fist had hit me in the shoulder and the affected area was numb for a long time (at least one hour) before it began to hurt. The biggest issue was working through the fear of seeing blood soaking my shirt and wondering how badly I was hurt. But again, it is my nature to fight and I assure you, I would have opened a can of whupass.

I often suggest that when a bad guy is hit, the seconds that he uses to determine how badly he is hit is the perfect time to beat feet outta there! His first thoughts involve "How bad is this?" After he collects his thoughts, he comes looking for payback.

In both cases, bullet placement played a key role as none of the hits were fatal. The same bullets placed differently (head shot- eye- ear) would have produced a different outcome. PLEASE don't tell me that a .22 or a .25 can't kill. I KNOW what a .22 can do- especially a .22 Hollow Point or Hi Velocity round! The shot placement was just wrong or I wouldn't be typing this. It wasn't my time to go.

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