Firing someone...

[benenglish]

I've been involved in some situations where it was decided to hang on to a bad employee out of pity. EVERY SINGLE TIME, it ended up making things worse.

Sometimes "worse" is a horrific understatement.

Management at my agency tried to be compassionate once and it blew up in the worst way I've ever seen.

Gloria was a great employee. Smart as a whip, hard-working, and ambitious, she was a field officer and was definitely going places. Then one Monday, she didn't show at work. Her manager went to her apartment with the apartment manager and found her on the floor. She'd had a stroke on Friday night and laid there for three days.

She seemed to recover...but not really. Extreme moodiness made her impossible to work with. The number of IQ points shaved off was incredible. She had no boundaries and her dealings with the public were frequently disastrous. She was no longer able to do her job (or any job where she had to deal with other people) but management wanted to be nice. They let her keep her pay level but moved her to a make-work position in an internal function where she didn't have to deal with the public.

Remember what I said about those lost IQ points? One day, she decided to coordinate birthday parties for everyone in her branch. She looked up every birthday in the branch using sensitive computer databases that were illegal to access except for case work. Literally, she could have done over a hundred years in federal prison at 2 years per unauthorized access.

Her traditional Chinese family could not endure the shame of having a defective daughter, so they forbade her (and thus she forbade her attorney) from using a diminished capacity defense. (Literally everyone in the building would have lined up to testify in her defense.) Instead, she did 5 years in federal prison before her family shipped her off to China to be hidden away with some paid-off relatives in a rural province.

Management should have forced her to take a disability retirement. She was genuinely, severely, and permanently disabled even though you had to spend a couple of days with her to realize it. But no, they decided to "help" her by allowing her to remain employed, keeping a higher salary and, ostensibly, some of her dignity.

Worst. Decision. Ever.

It breaks my heart to imagine what her life must be like these days.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

That's cause working at Big 4 almost requires drugs or alcohol. Mental breakdowns, health issues and divorces are not uncommon.

You'd also have to fire half the company if you did do drug tests......

Yep.

When we had clients who asked us to do drug tests we'd ask people if they preferred a different assignment before sending them to those clients. We wanted to make sure we didn't end up with anyone failing the test.

Lots of smart folks (I miss that) but the grueling conditions can tear people down if they let it.

 

[SA_Steve]

I'd say in the past 10 years, almost 20% of software developers we selected after intense interviewing either failed or declined to take the pre-employment drug test. And they were strong candidates.

 

[Ole Cowboy]

That's how it was working as a civilian with the Army. I watched a guy who was so bad, he would literally pull a chair up to his tool box and take a nap with a vehicle in the bay. Every time they tried letting him go in the past, he pulled the EO card. Finally they just quit trying. He must have had friends over in personell.

Welcome to the new American worker. Not being able to fire minorities has gone on for years and years in the govt and I am not just talking about color of skin (GLBT) crowd work it to the max. I have seen them get private offices and private fone lines and ZERO job assignments.

One that worked for me, retired after I did. He retired from Civil Service, DoD as a GS 12 and retired the day before he hit (IIRC) 25 yrs and picked up a $25,000 early retirement bonus...on the same day he retired from the Norfolk ISD where he worked FULL TIME as a school teacher while he worked FULL TIME for me and others.

Rare? NOT hardly!

I'd say in the past 10 years, almost 20% of software developers we selected after intense interviewing either failed or declined to take the pre-employment drug test. And they were strong candidates.

I would say your company needs to review its hiring criteria, a 20% fail rate is HIGH. I had turn over, but my fail rate was less than 3%. My turn over was within industry expectations. Most of my turn over was folks that were distant to me, generally very junior folks.

 

[SA_Steve]

When we would get a minority, no matter their ability the decision by HR was to hire them quick before they get away.
80% were gone within a year (for one kind of screw up or another), 20% got immediately fired, in one or two weeks, for background check/resume fibs. Some would hang on forever doing jobs that would not "sink the ship". Fear of the EEOC is extreme in medium to big companies.

 

[Ole Cowboy]

When we would get a minority, no matter their ability the decision by HR was to hire them quick before they get away.
80% were gone within a year (for one kind of screw up or another), 20% got immediately fired, in one or two weeks, for background check/resume fibs. Some would hang on forever doing jobs that would not "sink the ship". Fear of the EEOC is extreme in medium to big companies.

I suspect it will get worse till its on par with the Feds.

In the govt EEOC is a career.

Why did we have MLK as a federal holiday? The REAL answer: The was a move in the early 70's to take off MLK B day. You were not come to work that day, not request the day off or call in sick, but let the boss know you celebrated MLK day.

It got so bad in the military and Civil Service and was making inroads into the corp America in a few of the Fortune 500. Something had to be done and they created it as a national holiday.

It was also tried with Kwanza, but it failed or has so far. It failed because few folks could tell you what it really was.

 

[benenglish]

One that worked for me, retired after I did. He retired from Civil Service, DoD as a GS 12 and retired the day before he hit (IIRC) 25 yrs and picked up a $25,000 early retirement bonus...on the same day he retired from the Norfolk ISD where he worked FULL TIME as a school teacher while he worked FULL TIME for me and others.

This one has me curious as to how they could work the system that well. There's nothing wrong with federal employees having outside jobs but nearly every agency has a process for approval of such. An outside employment request is only granted if it will not interfere with or bring discredit upon the agency and its work.

It's possible to be granted approval to work a theoretically full time job while still working for the federal government. I don't see how it's possible to work two. And if a GS-12 with DoD is working two full-time outside jobs without an approved outside employment request, then they're subject to some serious disciplinary action.

Of course, I can also picture that disciplinary action taking the form of "give this guy an early retirement just to get him out of here." That, however, would require he fall into a job series undergoing a formal reduction in force.

That's an unlikely awful lot of stars that would have to line up. How did he manage to do it?

Seriously, this crosses over to a full-on scam. Can you give me any clue how he allotted the hours in his day so that he could convince three employers that he was working full-time for them all? I'd be interested in that.

BTW - I'm sure you know this but for those who don't, a $25K bonus is standard in those cases when a federal agency is trying to lay off whole classes of workers but would prefer they walk out voluntarily. The price the employee pays for taking early retirement under the old Civil Service Retirement System (which stopped taking new members in 1983) is, iirc, a 2% per year reduction in pension. So someone who retires with 25 years is taking a 10% pension cut for the rest of their lives. In the long run, it's not a financially sound decision for most people.

 

[Ole Cowboy]

This one has me curious as to how they could work the system that well. There's nothing wrong with federal employees having outside jobs but nearly every agency has a process for approval of such. An outside employment request is only granted if it will not interfere with or bring discredit upon the agency and its work.

It's possible to be granted approval to work a theoretically full time job while still working for the federal government. I don't see how it's possible to work two. And if a GS-12 with DoD is working two full-time outside jobs without an approved outside employment request, then they're subject to some serious disciplinary action.

Of course, I can also picture that disciplinary action taking the form of "give this guy an early retirement just to get him out of here." That, however, would require he fall into a job series undergoing a formal reduction in force.

That's an unlikely awful lot of stars that would have to line up. How did he manage to do it?

Seriously, this crosses over to a full-on scam. Can you give me any clue how he allotted the hours in his day so that he could convince three employers that he was working full-time for them all? I'd be interested in that.

BTW - I'm sure you know this but for those who don't, a $25K bonus is standard in those cases when a federal agency is trying to lay off whole classes of workers but would prefer they walk out voluntarily. The price the employee pays for taking early retirement under the old Civil Service Retirement System (which stopped taking new members in 1983) is, iirc, a 2% per year reduction in pension. So someone who retires with 25 years is taking a 10% pension cut for the rest of their lives. In the long run, it's not a financially sound decision for most people.

Minority is a free pass. How can you teach full time and be a full time worker for DoD in MY office (1 year)! EZ, he was Black teaching in a HBS (Historically Black School). He as not the only one, there were others. There was NOTHING he could do in my office, I had no job for him, but I had my own budget and he went against my budget line for 1 year then was moved to another budget line. You cannot fail at a job if you don't have a job. Got no idea, who handled his paperwork, I never did any on him at all, not even vacation approval. He came and went as he saw fit and I was told to keep my mouth shut and leave him alone! Ft Monroe Va

There was Ellen: She worked less than 20 per week, the other hrs, she worked and sat on a MULTITUDE of Black Women in ________________ (fill in the name(s) from the local NAACP to Federal employee union and so many she was gone every day from about 10 am to 4 pm. I had to stand there and applaud one day for her when she was promoted to GS 12. At least she never was attached to my budget line.

As for the $25k, don't know of anyone who did not get it. John got it, almost a year after he left (note did not say retired). He left after being arrested by the FBI for theft of govt property, he was arrested in the office. He was a GS 13. He was given probation so no jail time. The union got him his pension anyhow and he also got a check for $25k for EARLY retirement, LOL. He called me up and said Don, you will NEVER guess what came in the mail today (he and I were good friends, still are). So about 6 mo after his pension was approved they paid him $25k: He was DoD Red River Arsenal. Major union guy!

Or Dwayne: Private office, private line, no job assignments. Ran his OWN construction company full time from work. He built custom homes, commercial and apartments. He was a GS 12. He was a multi millionaire and my next door neighbor. Good neighbor, good guy: ROTC Command, he was OPENLY GAY on and off the job!

Another one, did not know his name: He came in every morning at 7am, when straight to his desk, pulled out cot, blanket and pillow, went to the LARGE bathroom, put cot up and went to bed. His alarm clock went off at 3:30, he gather his stuff, put it under the desk and went home (I guess), he worked a full time job, evening shift. Saw him regularly, everytime I needed to go to the bathroom while I worked there!

That is 3 I knew well over many years and I knew many more. The last one was just an observation, but his boss was my boss and he told me was the case was.

In every instance when I asked WHY and why don't you do something the private answer was always EEOC/Union!

 

[benenglish]

Thanks for that response. I don't know what to say. While I've seen abuses, I saw none of similar magnitude to the worst cases you cite. In my bureau, we were held to somewhat higher standards. By the time I left, though, those standards were on a steep decline, so I have a glimmer of understanding.

Kinda wish I didn't.

 

[Ole Cowboy]

Thanks for that response. I don't know what to say. While I've seen abuses, I saw none of similar magnitude to the worst cases you cite. In my bureau, we were held to somewhat higher standards. By the time I left, though, those standards were on a steep decline, so I have a glimmer of understanding.

Kinda wish I didn't.

I worked for DoD in the 60's and we worked like slaves. You did not dare show up late for work, even by a min, you would get your butt chewed off. In fact in those days, breaks for bathroom/smoke. You tell the boss you need to go to the bathroom on a non-scheduled break and you better have diarrhea and you will be lucky to not get SENT home. It was tough work and most of my bosses were x military, lots of retired military Sgts and they cracked the whip. Lot of WWII/Korea vets. NO place to fool around with those guys in charge.

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

What's with the minority bs if you can't do the job you're fired. .Period. ...
Im black as if you didn't know. I've been fired for not doing my job. .. so what i didn't cry like a bitch. .. that only made me go to the next and do better. To the op sad but that's business.
Sad yeah but one closes one opens. But if you can't do it well time to go and improve

 

[Ole Cowboy]

What's with the minority bs if you can't do the job you're fired. .Period. ...
Im black as if you didn't know. I've been fired for not doing my job. .. so what i didn't cry like a bitch. .. that only made me go to the next and do better. To the op sad but that's business.
Sad yeah but one closes one opens. But if you can't do it well time to go and improve

As it should be. In the govt, EEOC is a get out of jail free card. EVERYONE is scared to death of an EEOC compliant, even if not vailid and proven to be false, everyone knows about it and your career is tainted by it.

I had an EEOC complaint against me and while it was proven to be false my boss told me I had down the wrong thing and should not have done it!

We went on a week long field problem, we got back Friday at about late lunch time. I called a formation and we talked our the good, bad and ugly of it. It was Ft Hood Tx hot and I gave everyone who went to the field M-F, off the rest of the afternoon. What I had not noticed was that everyone that had gone to the field was a white or hispanic. There was not a single black guy who had gone, instead they stayed behind for various reasons, profile, sick, etc. When they did not get the afternoon off they headed to the EEOC office and filed a complaint that read like this: Lt Jones gave everyone the day off except the blacks soldiers or words to that effect (been a long time).

How long do you think it took for EEOC to come DOWN the chain of command, that is from the Major General Division Commander down. NOT a good week for me I assure you. Everyone was asked if they had gone to the field or not, but investigation and everyone knew of it. Had buddies in other units asking about it. The results were just as I had stated and done, if you went to the field you got the afternoon off, about 4 hrs if you did not you did not. But as I was told: "its the APPEARANCE of discrimination and perception is reality."

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

Appearance and perception be dammed. What happened to not what you think. But what you can prove

 

[itchin]

In today's pc world. Whites are bad and need to be punished.

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

In today's pc world. Whites are bad and need to be punished.

Bullshit

 

[Ole Cowboy]

Appearance and perception be dammed. What happened to not what you think. But what you can prove

I am sorry my friend, is called Political Correctness.

Today its ok to assassinate 2 policemen sitting in their car on duty, because some kid forced a cop to shoot him in another state. We live in a world where you cannot use the term Racial Islamic-Mulsim Terrorist and its been purged from all military, FBI, DHS etc documents and to not be spoken at all...

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

I am sorry my friend, is called Political Correctness.

Today its ok to assassinate 2 policemen sitting in their car on duty, because some kid forced a cop to shoot him in another state. We live in a world where you cannot use the term Racial Islamic-Mulsim Terrorist and its been purged from all military, FBI, DHS etc documents and to not be spoken at all...

i still repeat bullshit

 

[itchin]

Diversity and equality are code words for anti-white.

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

Ain't nothing going to change until each man and woman takes personal responsibility

 

[itchin]

That cannot happen if people are given special privlege due to their skin color. Or cannot be fired due to skin color or sex preference.