Concealed Draw (Without one in the Chamber and with on in the chamber)

[coboblack]

DISCLAIMER: I speak as an inexperienced person forming opinions, I don't pretend to know anything for certain, I am not hear to preach I'm here discussion my opinions. I am completely open minded and take no definite stance on either method.

So, I'm still pretty new to drawing pistols. I'm trying different techniques to see which ones make the most sense to me. I hear so many different people offering different advice that its hard to decide. I'm not used to not having a place to "Test Techniques".
In Jiu-Jitsu, when I learn something new I can go apply it right then, live against a resisting opponent? and test it. I can test it over and over and verify effectiveness...with this, its different.

I'll be heading out to an ECQC class soon with my Jiu-jitsu buddies, where you? use live semunition rounds in different scenarios...It will be I'll save my decisions till after I've been to a few of them and can experience simulated situations where I need to draw my pistol and use it. Here is some drills I was doing trying to see how efficiently I could draw my pistol and chamber a round and then I tried a few with it already chambered. (This isn't a show off video or instructional or anything, I'm sure I am doing a million things wrong....so feel free to offer advice)

Practicing Drawing My Glock 23 (Most without a round chamber and a few with one chambered) - YouTube

SAFTEY CHECK: I always remove magazine and check that there is no round in the chamber. I also still make sure that my barrel does not swipe any one in my house while practicing, my wife and kids stay behind me and I point at a wall that has empty rooms behind it and that doesn't face a neighbor.

 

[coboblack]

I am really torn between these two options for carry. I hear completely different advice given for different reasons, both sides have reasons that make sense...but a lot of the things that make sense of based on one out of a million scenarios vs 99% of the time scenarios.

One argument I hear is that you should always keep one round chambered because you may not have time to chamber a round, so I did some drill where I I practiced drawing my concealed Glock 23, chambering it and then aiming. (I'm not an expert or anything obviously I'm sure I was doing things wrong) But I didn't notice a difference in speed between chambering a round and not chambering (Unless you count being able to shoot from the hip)

Others argue ability to "remember to cock it", well, your body will do what its trained. In fact, after drawing the pistol and chambering for a while, when I tried it a few times WITH it chambered, I had to consciously focus on not chambering a round. I instinctively wanted to and even almost did a few times. This is just like Jiu-Jitsu or any other sport, your body wil do what its trained to do. Look how complicated it is to hit a 3 pointer.

Think about all the complex movements it takes to jump, hold the ball, aim, judge distance, follow through and put a freaking ball into a hoop perfectly 22 feet away. Its amazing when you think about it, but people are trained to hit it perfectly and the body does it with out thinking about it.

Think about typing. The brain is so powerful that I instantly type words, without paying attention to which key I'm hitting. I just talk in my head and instantly my fingers are knowing where to go to make this sentence happen. Its mind boggling. I literally forget peoples name 5 minutes after I hear them and I have to have my iphone remind me when my on moms birthday is but I can tell you instantly without thinking about it that the "z" key is right here Z.

Its because I've done it so many times, a neuro pathway has been built and my body no longers things about the action as a series of steps, it is mearly the action. I think of the action and the body does the steps automatically freeing my mind up to do other things. Like tying a shoe. When you first learned, you had to think each step, it was complicated, you had to sing songs to remember how to do it, but now, you've done it so many times, that you can tie you shoe in 2 seconds, while whistling and thinking about what you want for dinner.

I am not a handgun self expert by any means, but I feel like you can teach your body to chamber a round, relying on instinct and trainind during a stressful situation and keep the safety benefits and the peace of mind with leaving the gun unchambered. (This can also work against you, I know of stories where cops drop mags and pick them up during fire fights and get killed because of the habbit of doing it at the shooting range practicing)

 

[coboblack]

I've trained in sports my entire life, for over 25 years in sports that teach your body to react a certain way and I know from experience, when startled or even when your barely conscious...your body will react and move in the way it was trained. This is why you see knocked out UFC fighters, wrestling with the referee trying to sweep them when the ref is stopping the fight. The unconcious body is reacting on instinct.

Saying your pistol must be chambered because it is a step, is illogical IMO base on that alone. So is pulling up your shirt, it is a "step". Do we say all pistols covered by as shirt are useless because there is a step there? Do we say since you have to lift shirt and there is room for malfunction it is impossible to do? No, we train to lift the shirt correctly, well the same can be done for chambering a round. Is there more to go wrong with the added step?

Yes, but the flip side is, is there more that can go wrong if its chambered...again, the answer is YES. Infact here, I read the other day about the CHL holder who's chambered springfield went off when he went for his wallet and injured people around him. Had it not been chambered, that wouldn't of happened. So when making the decision, I ask myself,

A. Do I want to be ready for action but more prone to accidents 99% of the time, for the 1% chance I may need to draw my pistol.

or

B. Do I want to be safe for 99% of the time, and add a step that adds only one tenth of a second to my draw time, for the 1% chance I may need to?

With my wife and children around me always, I am leaning towards being for sure safe 99% of the time, and trusting on training and instinct to draw correctly in the 1% chance I may need to pull it. Because remember, that 1% time that you need to pull it includes EVERY scenario. And only a percentage of that includes scenarios where you don't have 1 tenth of a second to rack your gun. Its only when you don't see the danger coming and a gun is instantly pointed at you.

Again, I'm no expert so I'm not preaching...I'm just speaking out of inexperience what it seems to me and I'm curious what your thoughts are. I might completely change my mind after getting back from the ecqc classes that use live semunitions and put you in common scenarios where you have to draw and fire but who knows.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

The Israeli pistol shooting method which you're describing (chambering a round while drawing) is not advisable. Here's a few reasons why that don't get often discussed. Usually people's first response is to go to the gun. Well what if you don't have time and opportunity to do so? What if tying up both hands dealing with drawstroke and chambering.....you take a haymaker to the face and are now out for the count? What if it's someone with an edged weapon? Coboblack, since you have a background in martial arts, a lot of this stuff will make sense. It's always a good idea to be able to draw and run your gun one-handed. You might have to use your support hand to fend off an attack, sacrifice it to block an edged weapon from doing more serious damage to your vitals, etc. Can you draw from concealment and run that gun one-handed with whichever technique you choose? It's a good question to consider. True, even one-handed you could draw and use the rear sight to rack off the holster or belt. Though if you're having to do that one-handed, it's probably because you're injured and it's up close and personal, in which case time and opportunity are probably not something you have.

Go check out some videos of Southnarc/Shivworks and some of the force on force training evolutions they do. It starts to become very apparent how a lot of this stuff simply does not hold up in real life. Here's a good one:

EQCQ 2011 - YouTube

Lastly, one good indicator of what works and what doesn't: who uses it? Some of the Israeli's use their pistol shooting method. I have yet to hear anything from a legitimate source whether their own special operations units even use the technique. There aren't any other leading military special operations units or LE SWAT teams I have heard of that choose to use any technique like that other than a chambered and topped off gun in the holster.

Gotta run. I'll go ahead and be controversial to get the point across real quick. The Israeli pistol method was designed for use for untrained soldiers/police that weren't going to get much training, and so they'd be safe. It may serve it's purpose in that regard, but for Military, LE, and the armed civilian that gives a damn, it is a bullshit technique and potentially detrimental plain and simple.

 

[Orbie]

In reference to a glock, I think you are correct about staying safe by not having a round in the chamber at all times.

 

[Renegade]

Carry your firearm in whatever manner you feel comfortable with. Whether it is chamber loaded, empty or Barney Fife style, you are better prepared than 98% of all Texans, who do not carry at all.

Do not listen to anybody else opinion on how they think you should carry your firearm.

 

[Orbie]

Travis, do you know of any training like that in San Antonio?

 

[coboblack]

The Israeli pistol shooting method which you're describing (chambering a round while drawing) is not advisable. Here's a few reasons why that don't get often discussed. Usually people's first response is to go to the gun. Well what if you don't have time and opportunity to do so? What if tying up both hands dealing with drawstroke and chambering.....you take a haymaker to the face and are now out for the count?

I've thought about this, and to be honest. If he is close enough to hit me with a haymaker, then he is in my zone of comfortable for hand to hand fighting. I'm waaaaaaaaaaay more skilled at that distance and would probably not even reach for my gun. I probably instinctively would take him down and control him and then go for my weapon from a superior position (If I go for it all)

What if it's someone with an edged weapon? Coboblack, since you have a background in martial arts, a lot of this stuff will make sense. It's always a good idea to be able to draw and run your gun one-handed.

I've thought about this too and drill drawing and racking one handed. (Where you draw the pistol and rack it using your rear sites to catch your belt and rack it. It wouldn't be my first option, but it can be drilled enough that if you had to draw one handed you can draw and rack it extremely fast.) I will say that it works really easy with a glock, but my beretta has curved rear sights that do NOT catch on the belt well and it I wouldn't trust that method...but the glock has never missed a rack so far while drilling it.

You might have to use your support hand to fend off an attack, sacrifice it to block an edged weapon from doing more serious damage to your vitals, etc. Can you draw from concealment and run that gun one-handed with whichever technique you choose?

Yes, like I said, all my jiu-jitsu buddies go to the ECQC classes and both racking and reloading a magazine one handed is taught. I haven't mastered these or even drilled them in live scenarios yet ( I will when I go the next class with them) but I've drilled them at home and can do one handed racks fairly efficiently (Minus the adrenaline so far)

It's a good question to consider. True, even one-handed you could draw and use the rear sight to rack off the holster or belt. Though if you're having to do that one-handed, it's probably because you're injured and it's up close and personal, in which case time and opportunity are probably not something you have.

Lol, I guess I should of read everything you said before I started typing. This is also why I doubt I would go for my pistol if getting attacked that close. The only situation that makes me nervous, would be a knife. I wouldn't want to grapple a knife or chamber a round two handed, or even on my belt. A knife in someones hand that is close is one of the ones that makes me lean on the keep it chambered side.

Go check out some videos of Southnarc/Shivworks and some of the force on force training evolutions they do. It starts to become very apparent how a lot of this stuff simply does not hold up in real life. Here's a good one:

EQCQ 2011 - YouTube

Yes, these are the types of classes my buddies go to. I love them. I'm sure I might change my mind once I get there, I know some of my jiu-jitsu buddies carry with one in chamber and make arguments and others carry without it chambered...so we shall see =) I'll video tape my experiences there if I can and I will definitely let you know what my mindset is after. We should be going in a few months or so after I get the clear from the doctor start training again. ( I had an old broken nose fixed and turbanites reduced)

Lastly, one good indicator of what works and what doesn't: who uses it? Some of the Israeli's use their pistol shooting method. I have yet to hear anything from a legitimate source whether their own special operations units even use the technique. There aren't any other leading military special operations units or LE SWAT teams I have heard of that choose to use any technique like that other than a chambered and topped off gun in the holster.

I agree with this, but that is also my point. They spend 75%-80% of there time in situations where they will NEED to draw their weapon. As a civilian I will spend 99% of my time NOT needing to. I will spend 99% of my time needing to be safe around other civilians and family members.

Gotta run. I'll go ahead and be controversial to get the point across real quick. The Israeli pistol method was designed for use for untrained soldiers/police that weren't going to get much training, and so they'd be safe. It may serve it's purpose in that regard, but for Military, LE, and the armed civilian that gives a damn, it is a bullshit technique and potentially detrimental plain and simple.

Thanks for all the good points, I was hoping you would be one to comment. I respect your opinions a lot in fact, just off some of our PMS alone, you've tightened my groups at 10 yards =D

The jury is still out, more opinions are welcomed!

 

[coboblack]

In reference to a glock, I think you are correct about staying safe by not having a round in the chamber at all times.

Thats kind of how I've been feeling.

 

[Gramps]

Thats kind of how I've been feeling.

Meh, for six months (not long I know) carrying a G27 or G19 IWB with a round chambered, I have not had an ND. Like Renegade said though, do what you feel comfortable with. Just train in that condition always.

 

[coboblack]

Meh, for six months (not long I know) carrying a G27 or G19 IWB with a round chambered, I have not had an ND. Like Renegade said though, do what you feel comfortable with. Just train in that condition always.

Im sure I wouldn't, but there would be the constant fear of it happening. (Which isn't really a bad thing, you should respect it) But a even bigger fear is like most things, after time goes by CAN become complacent with something if you don't you should have a healthy fear and respect for. That, and different things like changing holsters or clothing have been know to call AD.

Your so used to your holster having a trigger guard and you change holsters, bend over and your jeans bunch up and cause the trigger to be pressed and your gun blows a hole in your balls. Or you accidently do something else and it goes off. The point is, you spend more time NOT needing the pistol to be drawn and fired. So during that time, you need the pistol to be SAFE. Well, it seems like there is more to go wrong when you keep one chambered. What if that thing going wrong, is me shooting my child. I couldn't live with myself.

Man accidentally shoots self in testicles - seattlepi.com

CHL Owner Accidentally Fires Gun In Walmart, Injures Himself And Three Others - Todd Canady

TexasCHLforum.com • View topic - Man Accidentally Shoots Self in Nevada Theater

 

[Gramps]

I'm not arguing with you, at all. Just my experience. But I will put this out there, in those ND articles what holsters did they use? In my daily carry with either Comp-Tac Minotaur holsters or a Lone Rider (Comp-Tac/Crossbreed style) have a hard kydex shell that covers the trigger.

Again, do what you're comfortable with. No one is here to say you're wrong.

Edit for clarification - First article no holster mentioned. Second article no holster mentioned. Third article the pistol fell out of his pocket, probably improper or no holster. Again not an argument, just making a point.

 

[coboblack]

I'm not arguing with you, at all. Just my experience. But I will put this out there, in those ND articles what holsters did they use? In my daily carry with either Comp-Tac Minotaur holsters or a Lone Rider (Comp-Tac/Crossbreed style) have a hard kydex shell that covers the trigger.

Again, do what you're comfortable with. No one is here to say you're wrong.

Oh please don't take my...."rebuttal"....for lack of a better word, in the context of an argument or debate. I don't want you to misinterpret this. I don't have a "stance" yet. At most, I'm playing devils advocate for the side I'm leaning towards, but I'm not sold either way. This is merely a discussion, I ask these questions and make the points I make, because I enjoy hearing your responses. Its makes me fully understand both sides and think clearer. I am not sold either way.

And I'm glad your brought up the holster, what is a good holster to carry a Glock 23 with one in the chamber? Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[Gramps]

I chose comp-tac for two main reasons: 1 - They have an "invisible" clip that attaches to velcro on the inside of a belt, a must for discrepancy in my office and with clients and 2 - they are located here in Houston, wanted to support a local company. With the Lone Rider it just so happened I was picking up a new pistol and Houston Gun Sales has XDS holsters which no one else that I know of does.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

This is the latest holster I got for my Glocks....I also bought one for my DW CBOB.
Kydex lined with leather.
These are tuckable as well.

Silent Thunder Holsters - Garrett Industries, LLC

 

[coboblack]

I chose comp-tac for two main reasons: 1 - They have an "invisible" clip that attaches to velcro on the inside of a belt, a must for discrepancy in my office and with clients and 2 - they are located here in Houston, wanted to support a local company. With the Lone Rider it just so happened I was picking up a new pistol and Houston Gun Sales has XDS holsters which no one else that I know of does.

From that site, which one of these do you think would be a good conceal holster, inside the waistband worn at about 5 o'clock. Which one would be good for keeping one in the chamber? In your opinion and why?

Comp-Tac : Products

 

[coboblack]

This is the latest holster I got for my Glocks....I also bought one for my DW CBOB.
Kydex lined with leather.
These are tuckble as well.

Silent Thunder Holsters - Garrett Industries, LLC

Sweet thanks

 

[Gramps]

Comp-Tac & Crossbreed are on the high end of the price spectrum, there are other suitable options but cannot remember the names now. I purchased the Comp-Tac Minotaur MTAC Inside Waistband Holsters - Minotaur Holsters - products new home - Minotaur MTAC Holster first and then a Comp-Tac Minotaur Spartan Inside Waistband Holsters - Minotaur Holsters - products new home - Minotaur Spartan Holster after that but second hand. The MTAC is used with velcro clips with a Comp-Tac kydex reinforced belt with velcro stitched inside, the setup is nearly indeterminable with tucked shirts. The Spartan uses standard clips for use outside of work or on days I use a riggers belt.

Search for "tuckable holsters" https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...306.2j4j1j1j5.13.0.les;..0.0...1c.eKfRmkYnPuY and start looking. Anything with a kydex body will adequatley protect the trigger.

Edit - I am not affiliated with Comp-Tac, just like their products.

 

[txinvestigator]

As a person who has carried a firearm for a living, intentionally into harms way, I will tell you that attacks come quickly and violently. You may or may not be able to work the slide to chamber a round. Why stack the deck against you? Why carry in a manner that I might not be able to fire my gun?

The question seems silly to me. Are you serious about self protection or not?

 

[ZX9RCAM]

I also own both Comp-Tac & Crossbreed Supertucks....