HD Shotgun

[Mexican_Hippie]

H&R Protector is an 870 clone. Very good price at Academy.

Academy - Harrington & Richardson® Pardner® Protector 12 Gauge Pump-Action Shotgun

Ditto.


Also, when did shotguns start sucking for self defense? I've been shooting them for decades and haven't noticed that they are no longer lethal. I guess I'm out of the loop. My robbers will just have to deal with getting shot with old school, 12 gauge, 00 buck shot.

 

[Mikewood]

Shotguns are fine for self defense but the "30 round" mag is the fallacy.
If you go to a shooting school you learn to shoot different weapons different ways based on the expected lethality of the weapon.
Instructors will teach that with Pistols and pistol cal carbines and carbines like ARs and AKs you fire 2-3 rounds at the threat to stop it. A controlled pair or a controlled pair followed by a head shot. Then you access and if the target is no longer a threat you move on. If it's still a threat you keep shooting.
Once you get into 12gauge and 308 battle rifles the philosophy changes and you start to see more instructors suggesting single rounds followed by assessment. To look at it another way a 30 round AR only has 10-15 "stops". A 12 gauge has 10 shells but each is a stop.
I don't feel undergunned at all!
Maybe it's the 9 lead balls each .32 across traveling at magnum pistol speed.

 

[Angered_Kabar]

Shotguns are fine for self defense but the "30 round" mag is the fallacy.
If you go to a shooting school you learn to shoot different weapons different ways based on the expected lethality of the weapon.
Instructors will teach that with Pistols and pistol cal carbines and carbines like ARs and AKs you fire 2-3 rounds at the threat to stop it. A controlled pair or a controlled pair followed by a head shot. Then you access and if the target is no longer a threat you move on. If it's still a threat you keep shooting.
Once you get into 12gauge and 308 battle rifles the philosophy changes and you start to see more instructors suggesting single rounds followed by assessment. To look at it another way a 30 round AR only has 10-15 "stops". A 12 gauge has 10 shells but each is a stop.
I don't feel undergunned at all!
Maybe it's the 9 lead balls each .32 across traveling at magnum pistol speed.

Bah screw that. I'll assess after 5 full magazines.

 

[matefrio]

Never said a shotgun won't work, Just there are much better options for HD.

Shotgun jams are difficult due to the tube feed and the little gate there. Take two full sized dummy rounds and short stroke one and find out for yourself.

Where do you practice? It's hard to find a shooting range that lets you shoot at a target that's not clays. Also how enjoyable is that training compared to carbine with the recoil of the shotty?

A Kel-Tec Sub 2000 can be found for around $320.00. Add a glock 32 round mag and it brings it up to $350.00. Affordablilty is there.

I'll stick with my AR15 though :-) I've always ended up selling the shotguns I buy.

 

[Glockster69]

My robbers ...

Why are you harboring criminals? Or have you illegaly imprisoned them?

 

[TheDan]

I think the shotgun's main strength is it's affordability. $180 for a Maverick 88 (made in TX!), cheap box of 00 and you're good to take on anything within 15-20yds. (Yes, 00 is still lethal past 20yds, but some pellets will be going around your target. Not something you want happening in a populated area) Switch to slugs and you're good to go out to 75yds or maybe further. Practicing is cheap and fun. A few weekends shooting clays and you'll have the instinctive aim that shotguns require down. If you don't have a defensive long gun and don't have much money the shotgun is the way to go.

All that said, I'd rather have a carbine... Capacity, accuracy, ease of handling all better with a carbine.

 

[Portals]

Now that's what i'm talkin' about!
Thanks for the options. I need to hear all sides - excellent give and take.
I have a Glock 23, Steyr .40, Walther PPK,...
Looking for a 9mm.

But I like the idea of not worrying about penetration - I mean of my neighbor's house (who is DPS).
This discussion is really what I need!
Thanks!

 

[matefrio]

Now that's what i'm talkin' about!
Thanks for the options. I need to hear all sides - excellent give and take.
I have a Glock 23, Steyr .40, Walther PPK,...
Looking for a 9mm.

But I like the idea of not worrying about penetration - I mean of my neighbor's house (who is DPS).
This discussion is really what I need!
Thanks!

Kel-Tec Sub 2000 .40 cal version will take the same mags as your Glock 23.

 

[Glockster69]

A Kel-Tec Sub 2000 can be found for around $320.00. Add a glock 32 round mag and it brings it up to $350.00.
Kel-Tec Sub 2000 .40 cal version will take the same mags as your Glock 23.

I CAN'T afford it ... I want it ... I CAN'T afford it ...

I've always ended up selling the shotguns I buy.

So essentially, you don't care for shotguns in general. That's cool.

 

[TheDan]

But I like the idea of not worrying about penetration - I mean of my neighbor's house (who is DPS).

Better just get a .22lr then Anything that'll penetrate a bad guy will penetrate a wall.

Slugs, buckshot, and pistol rounds (large and slow projectiles) will go through lots of walls and keep on truck'n. A .223 on the other hand (light and fast projectile) will lose most of its energy after hitting a wall. Just some more stuff to think about...

 

[TxDad]

Whats a shottie?


I like my Winchester Defender 1300. Nothing fancy.

 

[M. Sage]

Don't run just a pistol grip. Run a stock. You can't properly aim a pistol gripped shotgun. Yes, you have to aim a shotgun. Also, don't fall into the fallacy that birdshot is good for home defense. It isn't. It creates an ugly wound that's extremely shallow and entirely survivable. The only way it'll stop someone is through freaking them out or because it hurts like a mofo. Don't count on a psychological stop to end a fight. Rely on destroying whoever is out to destroy you.

Get a carbine and/or a pistol. An AR15 costs more than a shotgun but it makes a much better home defense choice.

Here, read this thread: http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/...-gun-home-defense-tactics-weapons-theory.html

Shotguns are fine for self defense but the "30 round" mag is the fallacy.
If you go to a shooting school you learn to shoot different weapons different ways based on the expected lethality of the weapon.
Instructors will teach that with Pistols and pistol cal carbines and carbines like ARs and AKs you fire 2-3 rounds at the threat to stop it. A controlled pair or a controlled pair followed by a head shot. Then you access and if the target is no longer a threat you move on. If it's still a threat you keep shooting.
Once you get into 12gauge and 308 battle rifles the philosophy changes and you start to see more instructors suggesting single rounds followed by assessment. To look at it another way a 30 round AR only has 10-15 "stops". A 12 gauge has 10 shells but each is a stop.
I don't feel undergunned at all!
Maybe it's the 9 lead balls each .32 across traveling at magnum pistol speed.

The only reason you don't see much of that with a shotgun is because you can't do rapid doubles or triples as easily. Just the same, I practice them with my shotgun whenever I actually bring it out to practice. It's mostly a novelty gun, home defense role is split between my AK and my Sigs.

 

[SC-Texas]

Shotguns are fine for self defense but the "30 round" mag is the fallacy.
If you go to a shooting school you learn to shoot different weapons different ways based on the expected lethality of the weapon.
Instructors will teach that with Pistols and pistol cal carbines and carbines like ARs and AKs you fire 2-3 rounds at the threat to stop it. A controlled pair or a controlled pair followed by a head shot. Then you access and if the target is no longer a threat you move on. If it's still a threat you keep shooting.
Once you get into 12gauge and 308 battle rifles the philosophy changes and you start to see more instructors suggesting single rounds followed by assessment. To look at it another way a 30 round AR only has 10-15 "stops". A 12 gauge has 10 shells but each is a stop.
I don't feel undergunned at all!
Maybe it's the 9 lead balls each .32 across traveling at magnum pistol speed.

Sorry. I disagree. The rifle allows for maximum lethality combined with round accountability.

Rifles are more likely to have lights and appropriate sight systems.

Rifle malfunctions are less likely and easier to clear in general.

I have a reliable 60rd mag v 8 rds in the m4 or 4 in the m1super90.

If I run through 60rds, I can reload and be back in the fight in 3-5 seconds v 30+ seconds to stuff 1-8 12ga rounds in the tube.

I'll take my ar15 or scar17 any day over my benelli m4

 

[M. Sage]

Yeah, that's another reason some people don't shoot rapid strings with a shotgun - low capacity. With a carbine, you've got plenty of love to spread around. Hell, with my 226, I've got 22 rounds ready to go (the Sig/Mecgar 20 round mags fit and function with 21 in them). If I need to use it, I can afford to give someone four or five rounds as fast as I can deliver 'em. I've still got over fifteen left after that!

A shotgun isn't an instant or guaranteed stop. That's why I practice rapid shooting with mine. I also went with a 20" barrel and improved cylinder choke to tighten the pattern up a bit. Missing sucks. With my pistols and rifles, I've never really truly practiced Mozambiques. I might do them for fun from time to time, but I don't feel comfortable relying on a headshot in that kind of situation.

Yes, pump actions are reliable in and of themselves. They're perfectly reliable in a vacuum. Where they fail is user-induced malfunctions. A pump action is only reliable if you don't short-stroke it. When your heart rate is through the roof, the adrenaline has your sight narrowed to a tunnel, your extremities are numb and you feel like you're floating, do you think that you're going to operate that bang stick the way it needs to be done?

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Why are you harboring criminals? Or have you illegaly imprisoned them?

Saves me money on targets, robbers show up at my house for free. I just keep 'em in the basement until I need some trigger time.

I get the pros and cons debate, but either will work fine. AR vs 12 gauge for shooting 1-3 bad guys at less than 25 yards is like arguing about Ferraris vs Vipers. They both have a little different pros, but they're both gonna get you where you're going pretty damn fast. Knowing how to use what you get is 1000% more important than caliber or platform.

Get what you can afford. Buy the shotgun since it's cheap and save up for an AR. The answer is always BOTH. If you're still undecided get the master key or this...

 

[SC-Texas]

A plasma rifle in the 40watt range?

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

It's got the flame thrower too. You just have to be careful indoors so you don't set your house on fire.

 

[TxDad]

A plasma rifle in the 40watt range?

Hey, just what you see pal

 

[TheDan]

Whats a shottie?

Slang for the pump shotgun in counter strike

 

[matefrio]

Slang for the pump shotgun in counter strike

A good way to heckle my shotgun loving friends :-)