Call to arms! Defund ATF 41P! It's coming

[SC-Texas]

FIRE MISSION: ATF-41P is coming - contact Your U.S. Senator and demand that they approve H.R. 2578 – Commerce, Justice, Science, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2016, without amendment
It is extremely important to let the Senators know that you want either
1. the House version passed or
2. the House's amendments, Amendment 320 - https://www.congress.gov/…/114th-congre…/house-amendment/320 and Amendment 302 - https://www.congress.gov/…/114th-congre…/house-amendment/302, to... be included in any approved appropriations bill.

 

[SC-Texas]

You really think the trust that Silencer Shop provides to their customers is something that could shrink their consumer demographic by risking them being put in jail?

It is a simple basic Trust.

It has no support.

If I do your trust you get me. I will be here after all these other robo trust sites close their doors. I have already outlasted a few gunshops doing "Lawyer in the back room of their shop" trusts.

Guess who is supporting all those orphaned trusts? No one.

 

[SC-Texas]

If you live there

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[Mexican_Hippie]

So if I understand correctly....this could spell the end of using a trust to purchase NFA items....and existing trusts will not be grandfathered which would effectively make them obsolete.

So rushing to establish a trust is a bad idea if I do not have the funds to immediately get papers started on said NFA items.......right?

Trust is still a good idea regardless. It's very helpful for estate planning.

 

[Tejano Scott]

It is a simple basic Trust.

It has no support.

If I do your trust you get me. I will be here after all these other robo trust sites close their doors. I have already outlasted a few gunshops doing "Lawyer in the back room of their shop" trusts.

Guess who is supporting all those orphaned trusts? No one.

This. I am a lawyer who could have easily done my own NFA trust if I wanted. I have compared Sean's trust to just about every robotrust and a few other attorney trusts. I can tell you, Sean's is way more in depth. It specifically spells out and contemplates scenarios the other trusts don't even mention. 40 pages versus 1-2 page trusts. I paid for Sean to be my attorney and to get his trust. I've referred countless others, including family members.

 

[35Remington]

You really think the trust that Silencer Shop provides to their customers is something that could shrink their consumer demographic by risking them being put in jail?

Jail is not your only concern. A shitty future with no guns is on the list.

"ATF Statements at the NRA Firearms Law Seminar

While at the NRA Firearms Law Seminar in Nashville, ATF ‘s attorney William Ryan made some interesting comments about the ATF, NFA, GCA and Gun Trusts:

A trust can be a beneficiary of a will or other trust and obtain a tax free transfer using a Form 5 if the trust or will is drafted correctly.
A Trust can be a beneficiary of a will if there is an order from the probate court directing the distribution to a trust, otherwise one might have to transfer to an individual on a Form 5 and then pay $200 to transfer items to a trust.
ATF is still reviewing the 9500+ comments filed on 41P.
ATF is not concerned about an executor being a prohibited person. (This seems to conflict with the original reason for 41P in the first place.)
ATF likes lawyer drafted trusts, most trust problems are from gun store trusts, free trusts, or trust form that individuals try to create themselves.
ATF examiners do not know the law, and have often made mistakes that can be cleared up by having your lawyer contact their legal department.
ATF has seen many trusts which name the same individual as the beneficiary. It would appear that all of those people are just copying the trust from someone else. They believe that one day this random person could inherit thousands of NFA firearms.
Between 2003 and 2012 trust applications increased 80,000 %.
ATF stated that Gun Trusts can purchase and own both Title I and Title II firearms (those under the GCA and NFA).
With the recent increase in poorly written online trusts that have become available, ATF feels there will be a big business in fixing them down the road for those who have unknowingly received the free or fill in the blank trusts.

In my opinion, one of the worst examples of an online trust we have seen is the Easytrust being promoted by Silencerco. According to them, there may be as many as 1000 people who have already received this trust which contains numerous problems. For a trust that is only 4.5 pages long, it appears to have even more problems than a Gun Trust drafted from Quicken. The list of problems is huge, but the biggest problems include:

The trust permits a trustee to easily violation the NFA throughout the document by not clearly prohibiting these violations.
The trust permits any trustee to sell your guns without your consent.
The Trust permits trustees to take away your gun rights, (from within the trust) if in their opinion you can’t handle your own affairs. Of course, your legal gun rights under the 2nd Amendment will not be removed, but your ability to use and have access to the guns in your trust can.
The trust directs distribution to beneficiaries upon your death without any written permission (a violation of the NFA)
The instructions incorrectly state that the trust needs to be registered in many states where it does not (seems to be similar to the problem we reported with the quicken trust)
Directs you to obtain an EIN number for their trust when it is not necessary, if requested from your bank. The instructions should state why an EIN number is not required and direct you on a proper response to provide the bank or how to deal with this common misunderstanding to tax law that many banks can initially make
(Updated 4/19/15 for a clarification).

I guess you get what you pay for. Some people are only concerned about purchasing items and do not think about the consequences to themselves nor others. It is wise to do a little research on Gun Trusts and learn why you would want a Gun trust for all your firearms and not one limited to NFA Guns like Easytrust or many other trusts which are not supported by lawyers.

Joshua Prince, a PA Gun Trust Lawyer, has written about the ATF statements on his blog Shocking Statements/Concessions by ATF at the NRA Firearms Law Seminar."

Sean can make these quality trusts as well, and like he said, he backs them up.

 

[winchster]

Would you pay $600? $800?

Probably not, considering the actual attorney that I recommended and used, charged $350

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[ScorpionHunter]

I can understand wanting to save money on a legal document that is just a means to get the NFA items we want. But realize when you have Sean (or any lawyer that specializes in gun trusts) do your trust, you're hiring him as a lawyer and establishing a relationship. Maybe you never talk to Sean again, but in the chance that ATF makes some screwy ruling, thousands of people who used trusts (robo or otherwise) will be calling Sean for help. Who does Sean respond to first? The people that he already has a relationship with -- his clients that hired him to do the trust. If that happens, I want a lawyer that knows the "space". I've hired over a dozen attorneys over the years for a variety of things. The useful ones are those that specialize in the problem or question I have (e.g. securities law, copyright law, patent law, etc) so the time I'm paying them for isn't to get up to speed in that space. Sean's on top of the NFA laws and is an enthusiast like us. You have to decide what value -- if any -- that is to you. Sean's not the only gun trust lawyer out there, so you can shop around a bit.

 

[Mreed911]

ATF has seen many trusts which name the same individual as the beneficiary. It would appear that all of those people are just copying the trust from someone else. They believe that one day this random person could inherit thousands of NFA firearms.

A) This is brilliant, even if unintended.
B) @ $200/pop for the transfer (since the beneficiary isn't necessarily a trustee), I'd bet the ATF is happy.
C) Anyone who wants to make me their beneficiary, I promise I'll (as trustee of my trust) pay $200 to the ATF for a transfer/stamp for your NFA item (free-of-charge!) to me when you die. I'll even make sure the income taxes are paid on the value, if appropriate/required.

 

[TheDan]

Also....could I establish a trust, pay for a few tax stamps and then use those a few months or even years down the road to purchase a suppressor or 7?

No, but you could get a few stamps for manufacturing and make your own later.

This. I am a lawyer who could have easily done my own NFA trust if I wanted. ... I paid for Sean to be my attorney and to get his trust. I've referred countless others, including family members.

The law is so complicated that lawyers have to hire a lawyer!

The list of problems is huge, but the biggest problems include:

Thank you. I've never seen anyone articulate what specifically is "bad" about those tempalted trusts before. I'm guessing all that stuff could be fixed in the template; the people making them are just shitty lawyers.

 

[Tejano Scott]

I bought peace of mind. I knew I was going to acquire enough of these things that I would want to take proper steps to protect my investment. If I was only buying 1 or 2 cans, then maybe the math doesn't work the same. With almost 20 items on my schedule A and $4000 in tax stamps, Sean's fee seems pretty small. Especially since I usually bug him with questions every time I see him.


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[duckknot]

I bought peace of mind. I knew I was going to acquire enough of these things that I would want to take proper steps to protect my investment. If I was only buying 1 or 2 cans, then maybe the math doesn't work the same. With almost 20 items on my schedule A and $4000 in tax stamps, Sean's fee seems pretty small. Especially since I usually bug him with questions every time I see him.


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That is my plan....unfortunately it is a "in the future" plan so this throws a wrench in the gears!

Call your senators!

 

[00ChevyScott]

I'm happy with my Silencershop trust. I'm the only one on the trust, so I don't have to worry about a lot of the issues with it.

Also, if I'm one of tens of thousands of other people with the same trust, I can't wait to see what kind of enforcement they plan on doing, if any. I'm not knocking lawyers that set up trusts, but those of us with cheap basic trusts are thousands and thousands of people. I'm not worried about it.

 

[texas skeeter]

Correct. Without fingerprints photo cleo

Thanx for the info and who's writing this new Sh-t to be passed? I mean the ATF can just make new rules at any time?

 

[Mreed911]

I'm happy with my Silencershop trust. I'm the only one on the trust, so I don't have to worry about a lot of the issues with it.

Hopefully you have a beneficiary other than yourself.

 

[Mreed911]

Thanx for the info and who's writing this new Sh-t to be passed? I mean the ATF can just make new rules at any time?

Yes.

Google Federal Register.

 

[SC-Texas]

I'm happy with my Silencershop trust. I'm the only one on the trust, so I don't have to worry about a lot of the issues with it.

Also, if I'm one of tens of thousands of other people with the same trust, I can't wait to see what kind of enforcement they plan on doing, if any. I'm not knocking lawyers that set up trusts, but those of us with cheap basic trusts are thousands and thousands of people. I'm not worried about it.

I have had several people In your shoes who weren't worried about it until they were worried about it and then when. They figured out how screwed up the trust was they got real worried. Problem is, you often don't know enough about what's going on to even be worried

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[TheDan]

Problem is, you often don't know enough about what's going on to even be worried

That is applicable for so many things in life.

 

[grumper]

Thanx for the info and who's writing this new Sh-t to be passed? I mean the ATF can just make new rules at any time?

They are supposed to follow the Administrative Procedure Act when they propose a change to federal regulation but after they got their peepee slapped by Congress for trying to ban M855 the SCOTUS said some changes no longer require compliance when amending or reinterpreting rules. The only reason Congress stepped in was because of the 80,000+ complaint comments the ATF had to accept and respond to.

So now they can just pull stuff out of their asses with no worries.

 

[SC-Texas]

Yep. That little ruling screwed us for sure

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