A Message to the Church of Bill of Sale

[easy rider]

The only cases I've seen here that have shown where a bill of sale on a firearm helped land someone in jail are from illegal sales in the first place. Are there those here then that advocate illegal sales of firearms? To state that one can get into trouble for using a bill of sale suggests that the act of selling a firearm itself could be illegal.

As I've said, I am not in favor of a bill of sale in a private transfer, but I also believe a seller of said transfer should be able to set the terms without being harassed. If a buyer doesn't like the terms, walk away. I would walk away from selling or buying if I didn't like the terms.

 

[Bozz10mm]

If HR8 passes, this’ll be a moot. No more private sales for anyone.

I was just about to mention that.

 

[V-Tach]

If HR8 passes, this’ll be a moot. No more private sales for anyone.

Which could never be enforced......ever.....

 

[Southpaw]

Which could never be enforced......ever.....

The proponents know that and will simply amend the law for some sort of database/registry. Perhaps doing it at the state level to avoid federal prohibition on having a gun registry.

 

[TreyG-20]

There are far more transactions made in this country using a bill of sale then there are without.

How do you know this?

 

[Renegade]

The only cases I've seen here that have shown where a bill of sale on a firearm helped land someone in jail are from illegal sales in the first place

Which ones would those be? Because the ones we have mentioned in this thread (Abramski and Shipley) were both legal sales.

Also waiting on you example of how a BOS got someone out of trouble.

 

[avvidclif]

I have never sold a gun where I required a BOS, but I will say that I did with a car and a pickup I had owned in the Northwest. Many places had cameras at lights to detect those going through red lights. A friend of mine went round and round with the city after selling a vehicle. The guy he sold it to ran a red light and it took quite awhile, since there was I believe 30 days for the other person to register the vehicle in his name. Not only was he fighting the fine, but his insurance caught wind of it too. After hearing about that I decided I wasn't taking that chance.

Texas has a place on their website to report a sale. Makes it simple.

https://webdealer.txdmv.gov/title/publicVehicleTransfer.do

 

[Sam7sf]

Which could never be enforced......ever.....

When Oregon passed sb941, after a couple years of requiring bg checks on third party, the state police who do them, put out a database of number of bg checks done per county for third party. Some only had less than 20 lmao. In a year. Lmao. It’s a waste of time and especially if your sheriffs don’t enforce it, it’s truly crap. So unenforceable

 

[easy rider]

How do you know this?

Really? You have to ask that? Have you ever heard of retail?

 

[easy rider]

Which ones would those be? Because the ones we have mentioned in this thread (Abramski and Shipley) were both legal sales.

Also waiting on you example of how a BOS got someone out of trouble.

Also waiting on a bet, and tell me how it was that there was nothing illegal until a bill of sale was used in those cases?

 

[Hoji]

Also waiting on a bet, and tell me how it was that there was nothing illegal until a bill of sale was used in those cases?

The point is the bill of sale on a private firearms transaction allowed the prosecutor to make a case to a group of jurors that an illegal firearms sale took place. For example, selling( dealing) firearms without a license.

 

[Renegade]

Also waiting on a bet, and tell me how it was that there was nothing illegal until a bill of sale was used in those cases?

The Shipley case was a result of a trace, and he was one of the persons the gun passed through. His sale to the deputy was legal.

The Abramski case was result of a search related to another crime, his sale was also legal he even sent it to an FFL to stay legal.

If you want to place bets, go to a casino. If you have info relative to this topic, post otherwise we will conclude you do not have it.

 

[Renegade]

The point is the bill of sale on a private firearms transaction allowed the prosecutor to make a case to a group of jurors that an illegal firearms sale took place. For example, selling( dealing) firearms without a license.

Neither Abramski or Shipley unlawfully sold firearms.

 

[easy rider]

The Shipley case was a result of a trace, and he was one of the persons the gun passed through. His sale to the deputy was legal.

The Abramski case was result of a search related to another crime, his sale was also legal he even sent it to an FFL to stay legal.

If you want to place bets, go to a casino. If you have info relative to this topic, post otherwise we will conclude you do not have it.

Look, making a case against a bill of sale is fine, but don't make it as if a bill of sale will put you in jail. It's the illegal activity that can land you in jail, and a bill of sale is not illegal.

 

[Renegade]

It's the illegal activity that can land you in jail, and a bill of sale is not illegal.

Correct. And the BOS is the initial evidence that initiated the investigations into those other activities. No BOS, no investigation.

No different than how others (drug dealers, embezzlers, etc) have their records used against them, even though the record keeping itself is not illegal.

 

[TreyG-20]

Really? You have to ask that? Have you ever heard of retail?

I wouldn't necessarily consider filling out a 4473 at a FFL the same as a doing a private transaction with a BOS. I think your wrong when it comes to private sales. I believe most happen with a hand shake. YMMV.

 

[easy rider]

Neither Abramski or Shipley unlawfully sold firearms.

Really? Illegally dealing in firearms (other words, dealing without a license) and straw purchase are now legal? Get your facts straight.

 

[sharkey]

Weak

Is it? Surely, not me. I post all the time here and I was guessing it was me he was insinuating.
What is weak is that for a bunch of freedom loving gun owners, a lot here are real pissy to opposing viewpoints even hoping I am a victim of ID theft. It is like the CC vs. OC debate. So many say just because it is legal doesn't mean you should OC. Sure it is legal to sell a gun to a stranger but some want to take an extra precaution which is also.......................wait for it................legal. I never mentioned a BOS but I have no issue with it if a seller or buyer asks for one.

 

[Renegade]

Really? Illegally dealing in firearms (other words, dealing without a license) and straw purchase are now legal? Get your facts straight.

Abramski sale was legal. The fact he lied on the form when he bought it does not change that.

Shipley sale was also legal. The fact he lied to LEO or should have had a license does not make the sale illegal.

Hence why neither of the defendants or recipients were charged with illegally selling a firearm. Nobody engaged in an illegal sale of a firearm.

For the record, there is no law against straw purchases.

 

[sharkey]

So then why do you photograph IDs?

I'm pretty sure you've stated previously in this thread that you do....

ETA:

Well you re-posted my reply that I do photograph an ID (which I do) so surprising you missed the answer to your question which I already posted. I guess go back and look at my other replies again like you already did.