Why is penetration so important?

[SIG_Fiend]

The "energy dump" theory has been thoroughly disproven. If you take a look at the amount of force sustained from punches and kicks, there is a substantial increase in energy delivered to the target. Various professional MMA fighters, boxers, kick boxers, etc have been tested, so there is scientific data out there. With the logic surrounding the whole energy dump theory, the increased level of force delivered by a punch or kick from a professional athlete should be enough to instantly kill you and throw you across the room. I forget who it was but, there was one of those guys that was measured at I believe 1,000lb/ft of force with their punch! That's twice that of a .45acp and delivered over a broader surface area.

In addition to that, there have been studies done showing that "temporary cavity" in many cases really has no effect in determining what stops the target. It's all penetration and damage to vital organs, it's that simple.

 

[majormadmax]

The next thing you know you guys are gonna be telling us that people don't fly back when they got shot like they do in the movies!



Cheers! M2

 

[cleric]

Because that's how you lose your virginity....




Or are y'all talking about something else?

 

[matefrio]

The "energy dump" theory has been thoroughly disproven. If you take a look at the amount of force sustained from punches and kicks, there is a substantial increase in energy delivered to the target. Various professional MMA fighters, boxers, kick boxers, etc have been tested, so there is scientific data out there. With the logic surrounding the whole energy dump theory, the increased level of force delivered by a punch or kick from a professional athlete should be enough to instantly kill you and throw you across the room. I forget who it was but, there was one of those guys that was measured at I believe 1,000lb/ft of force with their punch! That's twice that of a .45acp and delivered over a broader surface area.

In addition to that, there have been studies done showing that "temporary cavity" in many cases really has no effect in determining what stops the target. It's all penetration and damage to vital organs, it's that simple.

You can't compare something you misunderstood about punching and kicking to the reality of what happens when a bullet is able to come to a sudden stop inside the body due to expansion.

Funny how in the first video the hollow point PUSHES THE CARTON BACK off the stand. I'm not saying this is hollywood style knock them off the feet but a JHP has a bigger punch because it stops suddenly.

 

[Texas1911]

Funny how in the first video the hollow point PUSHES THE CARTON BACK off the stand. I'm not saying this is hollywood style knock them off the feet but a JHP has a bigger punch because it stops suddenly.

The only reason why the carton went off the end is because the water evacuated the front and nozzled the carton rearward. Shooting a water jug is not a measure of power or wounding. That's why they shoot gelatin, because the gel gives viscosity and structure to the fluid. When you change viscosity the Reynolds factorization changes considerably, and the reaction of the fluid changes significantly.

All a handgun bullet does is act like a blunt icepick. It tears the skin at the entry and crushes the meat / bone / organs that get in it's path. So you simply compare fired diameter to expanded diameter and you get impressive numbers like 50%, 60%, etc. but in reality you're only gaining fractions of an inch (~0.25") in diameter. I'll take what I can get, but the major difference is that an FMJ is far more likely to exit, whereas the JHP is more likely to get arrested by the body.

 

[M. Sage]

Water bottles and watermelons... Water is much "harder" than ballistic gelatin and living animal, for one thing. The expansion and effects you see in a jug of water are extremely drastic compared to what a flesh-and-blood target will present.

Watermelons... I got nothing. It's a fruit, not an animal.

Also, these bullets will not come to a sudden stop. Expansion starts immediately, with a bullet fully expanded after about an inch of penetration. The other 11+ inches are all spent decelerating.

Again, a handgun doesn't have significant amounts of energy to cause any interesting effects like you can find with higher velocity rifle calibers like 5.56mm. Handgun bullets poke holes in people, period.

 

[LilIrishTemper]

Also, these bullets will not come to a sudden stop. Expansion starts immediately, with a bullet fully expanded after about an inch of penetration. The other 11+ inches are all spent decelerating.

I noticed that in El Guapo's vid the last .40 HP in slow motion, you can see the jacket separates as soon as it hits the gel.

 

[M. Sage]

I noticed that in El Guapo's vid the last .40 HP in slow motion, you can see the jacket separates as soon as it hits the gel.

That's a chunk of gelatin flying off. If the jacket separated, it did it inside the gel, and that's where it stayed. Bullets don't expand on the surface, the jacket isn't going to come off quite that easily.

 

[Kingsnake]

Don't overthink the issue boys - in the big picture handguns are actually quite feeble.

Carry the most powerful one you can manage and load it with whatever factory JHP provides the maximum in reliability and accuracy, and hope for at least some expansion.

You are better served focusing on tactics rather than some magic bullet.


Regards -