Going over the ballistics of Hornaday CD .380 ammo penetrating through 10+" of heavy material and Gelatin to full expansion. Why does this make sense? Im the heaviest I have ever been at 230 lbs and am less than 9" from front to back. Even a .380 would pass through. Would it not make more sense to design a bullet that would dump all its energy into the first 5-6"? Everyone rages about penetration this or that but to me in a personal defense round a fully expanding round in real body dimensions makes more sense. I can understand the need to penetrate barriers and car doors for a police round. Please educate me.
Why is penetration so important?
- Thread starter dcfis
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well, as i understand it the faster a bullet expands the faster it slows down due to friction. so by the time it did explode out your back, (assuming it didnt hit any bones or cartiladge etc) it probably wouldnt be going very fast when it exits. if it slows to a stop in 10 inches, how fast can it really be going at 9 inches? see wha tim saying?
penetration is important because vital organs are inside the target, not ont he outside. the objective of shooting said target, is to destroy or atelast severely **** up said organs.
of course you dont want to OVER penetrate, and have that bullet exit the target with enough energy to penetrate another unintended sack of meat.
main reason you dont see .308 semi-auto cetme pistols in shoulder holsters very often...
i have a tendancy to oversimplify things, im sure sig-feind will be along shortly to give you a much more "in depth" (pun definatley intended) answer
penetration is important because vital organs are inside the target, not ont he outside. the objective of shooting said target, is to destroy or atelast severely **** up said organs.
of course you dont want to OVER penetrate, and have that bullet exit the target with enough energy to penetrate another unintended sack of meat.
main reason you dont see .308 semi-auto cetme pistols in shoulder holsters very often...
i have a tendancy to oversimplify things, im sure sig-feind will be along shortly to give you a much more "in depth" (pun definatley intended) answer
txinvestigator
TGT Addict
There has been much research ito this. Your body is not exactly like ballistic gel. You have bone, organs, cartlidge, etc., that is more dense that the gel. The testing takes this into account.
Yeah, 10" of penetration in ballistic gel does not equal 10" of penetration in a human torso. You have lots of internal stuff that will deflect, damage, or slow down the bullet. On top of that, imagine the very real likelihood that the attacker is not offering you a perfectly squared off target. If he's bladed 45 degrees and has his arm in the way, all of a sudden you have to shoot through TONS of bone to reach anything remotely vital. What ballistics gel does is offer a consistent medium to test different bullet ballistic characteristics. It is not 100% definitive or 100% accurate with reality, however it is the most consistent method we have of coming to some general conclusions on the effects of various bullets.
Agreed, it would be too expensive to make a more accurate copy of a human torso to test penetration; but watch episodes of Mythbusters and you'll see they do so for some of their experiments (the one that comes to mind is dropping a frozen turkey on the dog)...
Of course, they didn't replicate the internal organs but at least they included the skeleton to get a better idea of the impact the fowl would have on the canine. A similar model would demonstrate how a round would be affected by the bones and vice versa.
Plus, Kari's pretty hot, another good reason to include the video!
Cheers! M2
Mythbusters Zombie Dog (Video won't embed, so click on link)
Of course, they didn't replicate the internal organs but at least they included the skeleton to get a better idea of the impact the fowl would have on the canine. A similar model would demonstrate how a round would be affected by the bones and vice versa.
Plus, Kari's pretty hot, another good reason to include the video!
Cheers! M2
LilIrishTemper
Active Member
Kinda off topic but I've actually seen 5.56 wounds in Iraq where they were shot in the upper torso (shoulder, collar-bone) and the exit wound was in the stomach, crotch area. In the front out, out the front. Just to give you an idea how much crap there is in the body to bounce off of.
I dont think that is off topic at all. all the above reasons figure in to the equation.
LilIrishTemper
Active Member
Comparing 5.56 to a .380 was my rational.
Then there's the fact that people wear clothes, sometimes thick jackets, and sometimes they even hide behind something while shooting. Allow yourself to think beyond the square range, paper targets, and ballistic gelatin, and you start to see why the Soviets liked steel core ammo so much.
"Why is penetration so important?"
Otherwise it isn't sex IMO.
Sorry, Steve M made my point...usually clothing and crap to get through first. You are not usually hitting naked attackers squarely in the torso.
Otherwise it isn't sex IMO.
Sorry, Steve M made my point...usually clothing and crap to get through first. You are not usually hitting naked attackers squarely in the torso.
LilIrishTemper
Active Member
I've always wondered about these keeping clothing and debris out. If the claims are true, then why isnt LE issuing them as duty ammo instead of JHP? I'm not trolling, Corbon makes some damn fine ammo.
Wound Ballistics 101
By Paul GomezIt's a large PDF file so I will just post a link, but I like the article.
http://mdtstraining.com/Wound_Ballistics_101.pdf
His point is valid, just worded a bit antagonistic.
Think of the other barriers the FBI tests through, like steel (car doors), auto glass (laminated and standard), etc. and you start to see where .380 is limited. The cartridge itself is underpowered (like virtually all handgun rounds), and on top of that the guns themselves are generally short barreled. Velocity measures a solid 100 - 150 FPS slower in the LCP than actual testing ammo (which uses a 4"+ long barrel).
Pushing a 95 grain bullet at 850 - 900 FPS is much different than a 124 grain bullet at 1050 FPS. That's why the 9mm Luger performs so much better in penetration testing. It has the same cross section but significantly more velocity and inertia. When you start to compare .40 S&W and .45 ACP you start to make slight gains in energy, but you have more cross section; hence why they don't generally perform significantly better than 9mm.
In the end, will a .380 work? Gun fights have proven that the .380 is a suitable round for defensive work. It's just a matter of understanding your capabilities, and making good hits when the opportunity presents itself.
Will I carry a .380 on a daily basis? No, and that has more to do with the fact that I don't like the package (pocket guns) as a primary defensive pistol.
Will I carry a .380 for a back-up? Absolutely. I feel that this is the best suited role for the .380 pistols.
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