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Why don't people train?

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  • breakingcontact

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    Go out and shoot your guns, learn to be accurate, maybe fast. There you go, training completed.

    Most of the famous instructors have a monetary incentive to convince regular Joes that "training" is only what they do. I don't buy into that hype. It's all artificial.

    I'm sure they have good information on tactics and state of mind, but you can do a little digging around and learn all that on your own.

    I also equate shooting drills to repetitive drills in the martial arts. Not all that practical or realistic. Fun maybe. You can be a black belt at taekwondo and still get your butt handed to you by a street thug. Or take MMA, you can train 10 hours a day in several disciplines and still get knocked out by Tank Abbott in 2 seconds.

    I agree that trainers are certainly selling themselves. They aren't doing it for free.

    As far as shooting drills being like earning a belt in TKD, if that's all you do, sure.

    Finally, Tank Abbott could no longer hang as a serious competitor in MMA whereas Randy Couture (who is a few years older), stayed competitive, because he took it seriously and trained.
    DK Firearms
     

    breakingcontact

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    To offer another possibility, I think one of the reasons a lot of people don't train is much the same reason a lot of people don't lift/exercise (I am the pot calling the kettle black on that one for sure lol), or any other number of hobbies and/or endeavors in life. Basically, it requires sacrifice. It requires you to sacrifice some of your precious time, to do that thing. People have jobs. They have families. They have extracurricular activities they might already be obligated to. Compounding that is the fact that people are so inundated with so many other things in life these days, that even deciding to consistently do ONE thing for just 15 minutes every single day, seems like an overwhelming commitment to them. Inserting yet another time-draining component in their life often seems like just too much for a lot of people, or so they think.

    I'll say this much. My personal experience over the last 2 years has shown me quite a bit about what can happen when training consistently and achieving a certain level of performance, as well as what can happen when not training as consistently, and going increasing periods of time with minimal to no training. I've found that some of the common sayings people have along the lines of "use it or lose it", actually are not always true. I've found that, if you achieve a fairly decent level of performance and build a decent amount of neural memory (less correctly stated as "muscle memory"), that you can actually retain a fairly high percentage of those skills, and that there are primarily certain areas which will decline. For example, for me, for quite awhile I've been going months on end without firing any live rounds, just with some dry practice in between, and of course always working on my mental game, perception, etc. I find that I can go fairly long periods of time without shooting, and my accuracy is still there I would say to about 90-95% when I get back to the range cold that first time. Also, I would say that under the same circumstances, my speed with most things is around 85-95%, depending on exactly what we're talking about. In terms of speed, I might be off 0.1-0.3 seconds on a lot of things, from where my performance was previously. Where I would say I've seen the biggest decrease is in manipulations with the gun. For example, I notice if I go long periods of time (months) without any dry practice or live fire, I tend to start fumbling reloads a lot more frequently, reloading a bit slower by several tenths of a second, etc. The big decrease for me has really been the reloads for some reason, and maybe firing at speed at distance (say 15yds+). I still find, though, that I can go cold for months, go to the range, shoot B-8 bulls for score, or shoot a particular scoreable drill that doesn't require significant manipulations, and I'll find I'm still at anywhere from 80-95% of where I was before, it's just those certain things are a little bit more rough around the edges.

    I don't say any of that to advocate making excuses not to train, just more because I've found it very interesting how things have played out over the past year or two. What I have found in particular, that seems to really help me at least, is because of my nature, I am usually always still doing things to work my mind, work my perception, continually making myself aware of my surroundings, and constantly working that mental game.

    Also, here's something to really mess with your mind, so to speak. ;) It has been a year or two since reading this but, I remember awhile back reading a study on I believe PubMED, that showed some potential indicators that mentally rehearsing a task may actually stimulate some degree of additional growth of myelin around the neurons associated with performing that task. For those that don't understand what I'm talking about, in essence, "muscle memory" is a misnomer. When you learn and repeat a task to the point of building "muscle memory", what is actually happening is as you perform those repetitions, the neurons in your brain that keep firing the signals to perform that task, have additional layers of a myelin sheath secreted around them. In essence, as these layers build up, they effectively help serve as I believe an insulator and conductor, helping the neuron to actually fire its signal faster. The end result, you achieve subconscious competence with that task and can perform it proficiently and at greater speed without even thinking about it. So in that regard, "muscle memory" is more appropriately called neural memory.

    Anyways, what I was getting at is, I came across some studies that had research data showing that there is potential for additional layers of this myelin sheath to be generated around neurons associated with a task, sometimes simply by mentally rehearsing and imagining yourself performing that task. From what I remember, this was by no means a definitive study, and it may not apply to all people all of the time. I found it very interesting though, as I will constantly find myself mentally rehearsing things like drawstroke in great detail (to the point of perceiving the feelings of actually doing it, as well as all of the idiosyncrasies involved). In hindsight, after thinking about it, I honestly think that all of this mental rehearsal in great detail has probably benefitted me significantly in maintaining at least certain skills during periods where I've gone a long time without firing a live round.

    I've read a lot about visualization in sports. Interesting you mention the brain changing some. I thought it was a psychological conditioning thing but it may have some physiological effects as well. Very interesting.

    Skills do degrade but not as fast or far as many say. If I don't shoot for 3 months, I don't fall back to where I was years ago. Again, I think that's another excuse people make for not training.

    As far as physical training and being in good physical condition, I should focus more on that as well.
     

    ROGER4314

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    There was a time when I was a pretty fair pistol shot and won some awards doing that. My high power rifle competition speaks for itself. I have proof and witnesses if anyone challenges that.

    The fact is that the years have taken their toll on me. From eyesight to arthritis, this old body is just plain worn out.

    Reason # 1.....I do not train regularly because of physical limitations.

    More importantly, my shooting sports activities have always been geared to FUN. I enjoy shooting and have ensured, over the years, that I keep things simple, exciting and fun. I don't want to "TRAIN" like my life depends on it even if it does.

    Reason #2 ...... I don't want to hang around with people who consider their firearms activities a "blood sport". I am proficient, prepared and willing to defend my property, friends and my little dog Jake. I slide my pistol in my pocket every day and pray that I never need to draw it.

    I scored a 100% on my CHL renewal target and a 100% on the written test. I know the rules and have the proficiency. That being said, I put that stuff in the back of my mind, disregard it and that's where it stays.

    There is not one molecule of my body that wants a confrontation using my pistol. I do not plan for that to happen nor will I allow that to happen. When ALL attempts to avoid a confrontation are exhausted, only then will I resort to burning gun powder.

    Will I run like Hell?....You bet! Am I a coward? Put a f'ing hand on me and.........well, you know.

    SO...I avoid "Training" like it's a social disease! I want no part of it nor will I place it on a high priority in my life. I'd rather be busting clay pigeons on the 200 yard berm with my .22.

    Flash
     
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    ROGER4314

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    Here's my first CHL renewal test target The latest renewal didn't require a range test. It was fired with a .45, 1911 on a beastly hot day. 38 rounds went through the center hole. I shoot fairly well so I let that alone and go play! It's posted on the inside of my front door in the "man cave.".

    Flash
     
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    breakingcontact

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    Here's my first CHL renewal test target The latest renewal didn't require a range test. It was fired with a .45, 1911 on a beastly hot day. 38 rounds went through the center hole. I shoot fairly well so I let that alone and go play! It's posted on the inside of my front door in the "man cave.".

    Flash
    Nice shooting.
     

    breakingcontact

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    I look forward to continuing to have conversations about training with those who'd like to. I am also setting up a website on defensive shooting and self defense using guns in general.

    If you aren't into training, that's fine, I'm not into hunting. I'm not going to try and convince you you should be into training because hunting is a waste of time, it certainly isn't.

    As far as my social values or religious views, I am friends with people living far differently than me both in terms of social values and religious views. I can dislike their lifestyle or not agree with their religion without disliking them as a person.

    I don't dislike or have issues personally with anyone on this forum.

    Enjoy the nice day.

    See you at Hicksville.
     

    OIF2

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    Interesting thread. Here's my take on it. I starting shooting long ago because I liked guns. I joined the infantry because there was lots of shooting with free ammo. I got picked up on several different military pistol teams because I was good, it got me out of some field duty and was another source of free ammo and shooting. I "trained" daily, shooting the National Match Course, which most people consider irrelevant to combat practice. One-handed, 25 and 50 yds, generous time limits. I wasn't "training", I was competing in a sport I loved (bullseye shooting). I shot literally hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo in practice and competition (your tax dollars at work). Later, I joined the LAPD. I also shot a lot there, including PPC with probably the best revolver team (at the time) in the US. Still fun and not considered 'training". Along the way, I taught thousands of cops and Soldiers how to shoot. It doesn't take much to reach a base level of proficiency, which is all the average gun-toter needs. Besides, it's boring to most people (and cops) who want to do other things instead of shooting. If you can load and unload your gun safely and hit a silhouette at 7 yds or less, you're good to go. Cleaning your pistol afterwords probably helps, too. That's about all you can expect from the average Soldier or cop. Most CCW types are worse. But they seem to get by. What's MUCH more important is WHEN to shoot. Some people carrying a concealed weapon don't have a clue. Look at some of the questions here on the forum.

    We're all here because we like playing with guns and shooting them as often as possible. Doing SWAT or DELTA entries ain't in the cards for most of us. But it's nice to fantasize what you'll do if a howling mob of Mongol bikers hits your little 2 traffic-light town. So some guys load up with 2 guns, 4 reloads, tac knife, light, spare batteries, etc. for a sit-down at Denny's. They pick a tactical position facing the door and glare at the customers coming in. As the Brothers say in the southside of LA, "it's all good". But not necessary.

    I carry a 5-shot 2 inch .38 in my waistband, same as I've carried the last 30 or so years. I hardly ever shoot it. Practice with one gun carries over to any other gun, to a greater or lesser extent. I still shoot some kind of handgun at a bullseye target several times a week, and still compete in retirement. I dry fire daily. No need to shoot the little gun I carry. I also know my limitations; I won't engage at 50 yds or take on an infantry rifle squad.

    The best form of practice is going back to the basics; no shooting quickly at sinister targets at 10 feet while doing a roadhouse spin. Sight alignment and trigger control committed to absolute muscle memory is what marksmanship is all about. You can still lose a gunfight if your tactics are good and your marksmanship sucks. The basics are boring though, so plates, colored human targets and silly time limits during a draw and shoot are what people want to do.

    My advice isn't to "train". Learn to shoot. Hitting small targets slowfire should be your initial focus. Rapid fire, moving while shooting, speed reloading and other advanced tactics come later and are easily learned by a good marksman. Do the boring stuff and always score your target; bullseye targets don't lie. My thoughts only, based on 40 years of competitive shooting, thousands of folks trained, more than one eventful Army combat tour and 24 years working in Los Angeles. A trained, confident marksman is still the deadliest threat on the battlefield, or in the AutoZone.
    Bob
     
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    Andy

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    Why don't people train... well, a lack of facilities where one is allowed to do the tactical-type stuff is certainly one. Drawing from the holster, controlled-pairs, etc - there's a place 20 miles from me and I don't mind the drive, but their wait-list is 3 years.
     

    Charlie

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    Interesting thread.......

    My advice isn't to "train". Learn to "shoot". Hitting small targets one-handed should be your initial focus. Rapid fire, moving while shooting, speed reloading and other advanced tactics come later and are easily learned by a good marksman. Do the boring stuff and always score your target; bullseye targets don't lie. My thoughts only, based on 40 years of competitive shooting, thousands of folks trained, more than one Army combat tour and 24 years working in Los Angeles. A trained, confident marksman is still the deadliest threat on the battlefield, or shopping in the AutoZone.
    Bob

    Glad to hear someone say it that way. I was taught in school that animals were "trained" and humans were taught. And of course it's difficult to separate the two under most circumstances in most instances. The "training" we talk about here is both; muscle memory is more the training and how to react to situations is the learning we acquired from being taught. It's semantics to some degree. The only possible downside I see to training like we're discussing is that situations in real life are never going to be the same as the controlled environment on a shooting course. Correct decisions about when to do what to who must be decided upon must be made in a split second and made correctly. Just because someone was trained to do something on a course or in a classroom does not make it the correct action in all circumstances on the street.
     

    peeps

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    Glad to hear someone say it that way. I was taught in school that animals were "trained" and humans were taught. And of course it's difficult to separate the two under most circumstances in most instances. The "training" we talk about here is both; muscle memory is more the training and how to react to situations is the learning we acquired from being taught. It's semantics to some degree. The only possible downside I see to training like we're discussing is that situations in real life are never going to be the same as the controlled environment on a shooting course. Correct decisions about when to do what to who must be decided upon must be made in a split second and made correctly. Just because someone was trained to do something on a course or in a classroom does not make it the correct action in all circumstances on the street.

    The English language is a bitch sometimes...

    One must learn to shoot, but once you learn, you must do. Practice, train, drill, it's not what you call it that's important. What is - learn, then do.

    I'm sure we can all agree that problem solving is definitely the hard part.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    I think there very definitely is often a confusion in terminology when it comes to these things, and the general term of "training" could be taken many different ways. There are also many different types of training. It would probably benefit us if we specified what specific types we were referring to, to avoid some of the confusion. I know I'm probably guilty of this as well.

    There's also competition, which I feel is very important as well, to put one's self to the test and add some additional degrees of stress.

    In terms of training versus reality, I once heard it summarized perfectly, IMO: Understand the principle of the drill. Don't confuse the drill for the application.

    I particularly like Bob's description of people sometimes going a bit overboard. ;)

    So some guys load up with 2 guns, 4 reloads, tac knife, light, spare batteries, etc. for a sit-down at Denny's. They pick a tactical position facing the door and glare at the customers coming in.
     

    OIF2

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    There's also competition, which I feel is very important as well, to put one's self to the test and add some additional degrees of stress.
    I ;)

    Roger that. Competitive stress is good. COL Charlie Askins, no stranger to a gunfight, said he experienced far more stress during the Nationals at Camp Perry (which he won, in 1937), than in any gunfight he was in.

    Bill Allard, 1982 civilian National Champion at Camp Perry, said that an intense focus on the front sight while exercising trigger control, learned from thousands of rounds fired (muscle memory), is what won his gunfights. Bill has been in more shootings than any other NYPD copper (including Jim Cirrillo, his partner). When he left the SOU (NYPD Stake Out Unit) he was at 100% in hits (and kills).
     
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    Charlie

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    I think there very definitely is often a confusion in terminology when it comes to these things, and the general term of "training" could be taken many different ways. There are also many different types of training. It would probably benefit us if we specified what specific types we were referring to, to avoid some of the confusion. I know I'm probably guilty of this as well.

    There's also competition, which I feel is very important as well, to put one's self to the test and add some additional degrees of stress.

    In terms of training versus reality, I once heard it summarized perfectly, IMO: Understand the principle of the drill. Don't confuse the drill for the application.

    I particularly like Bob's description of people sometimes going a bit overboard. ;)

    Who's Bob?
     

    OIF2

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    OIF2 aka "The guy that posts the best looking pictures of the best guns." ;)

    Thanks! My weekly training, or whatever...

    4_zpsb3e1d60e.jpg
     

    ROGER4314

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    It's important that you analyze your shooting results and understand why you shot like you did. In that regard, "training" can be fun and interesting.

    On my CHL target, note that all rounds were going into the "X" ring, then they started impacting left.

    I've had that pistol since 1968 and shot it off & on for all that time. It had smooth, fake pearl Jay Scott grip panels that have been on the pistol for over 47 years and had some sentimental value to me. The day we shot that test, it was hot and extremely humid. Those smooth, slick grips allowed the pistol to rotate in my sweaty hand and bullet impact shifted left. When you can identify the reasons WHY your bullet impacts ended up where they did, you have "arrived!"

    For my standards, if you can make a sight change in windage or elevation, and bullet impact shifts in a predictable and consistent manner, then you and the pistol are in sync and you have correctly bonded with that tool.

    On OIF2's spectacular target (great shooting!), I'll bet that he knows the order that the two 10's were fired and exactly why he placed them out of the "X" ring. My habit is to toss the last round where the slide locks back. Both are very close to breaking the "X" line and sometimes the holes close up on the target after they've been carried around. They may have scored "X" initially. Still, they all score "10" and the target displays terrific control!

    Flash
     

    StevenC.

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    My advice isn't to "train". Learn to shoot. Hitting small targets slowfire should be your initial focus. Rapid fire, moving while shooting, speed reloading and other advanced tactics come later and are easily learned by a good marksman. Do the boring stuff and always score your target; bullseye targets don't lie. My thoughts only, based on 40 years of competitive shooting, thousands of folks trained, more than one eventful Army combat tour and 24 years working in Los Angeles. A trained, confident marksman is still the deadliest threat on the battlefield, or in the AutoZone.
    Bob

    I think I will like this Bob guy.
     
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