Where can I get some

[picker]

Winchester 231 ?

best. Joe

 

[Andy]

Good luck - I have no idea

 

[Charlie]

I'll check Gibson's in Kerrville tomorrow. Let you know.

 

[picker]

I'll check Gibson's in Kerrville tomorrow. Let you know.

Man that would be good if they do have it, I'm going to San Antonio next week and will stop by Nagels
Thanks Charlie

 

[vmax]

HP38 is the same powder IIRC

they are identical

hope that helps.

 

[Charlie]

HP38 is the same powder IIRC

they are identical

hope that helps.

Correct!

 

[rsayloriii]

HP38 is the same powder IIRC

they are identical

hope that helps.

Correct!

Close, maybe, but I wouldn't say same. Different load data (though close), and different burn rates (again, close), according to my manuals.

 

[Charlie]

Identical, according to some of the writers in Handloader Magazine who have visited the plants and said they have seen it coming out of the same spout. Different load data is common among different manuals. In researching what I might want to load, I've seen load data from Speer, Lee, etc. listing the same amounts of the same powder with the same bullet showing significantly different velocities, etc. I'm not saying I buy into everything I read, but I've used HP38 and W231 quite a few times and have never (so far) been able to notice any measurable (by me) difference.

 

[rsayloriii]

Hornady 9th Edition, .45 ACP, 200 gr, 900 FPS:
- Win 231: 6.3 gr.
*#15 on burn rate chart
- HP 38: 6.6 gr.
*#18 on burn rate chart

Modern Reloading 2nd Edition, .45 ACP, 200 gr, 900 FPS:
-Win 231: 5.8gr.
*#11 on burn rate chart
-HP 38: 5.9 gr.
*#10 on burn rate chart

Lyman Reloading 49th Edition, .45 ACP, 185 gr. 900 FPS:
-Win 231: 6.1 gr.
*#21 on burn rate chart
-HP 38: 5.8 gr.
*#20 on burn rate chart

Close, but not same. I personally wouldn't be willing to intermingle the charge values.

 

[Charlie]

Hornady 9th Edition, .45 ACP, 200 gr, 900 FPS:


Close, but not same. I personally wouldn't be willing to intermingle the charge values.

What's your definition of "....intermingle the charge values.". The reality of it is one can buy "X" powder in 1992 and reload with it and buy a new can of the same powder in 2014 and they will be slightly different from each other. Each to his own train of thought regarding loading decisions and techniques. That said, I just don't believe it would ever be an issue to use either as they are the same (but definitely not mix them). I go by whatever manual I am using and if it isn't what I'm looking for regarding bullet type, weight, powder charge, COAL, etc., I just find another manual that will. I don't make up or substitute.

 

[rsayloriii]

What's your definition of "....intermingle the charge values.". The reality of it is one can buy "X" powder in 1992 and reload with it and buy a new can of the same powder in 2014 and they will be slightly different from each other. Each to his own train of thought regarding loading decisions and techniques. That said, I just don't believe it would ever be an issue to use either as they are the same (but definitely not mix them). I go by whatever manual I am using and if it isn't what I'm looking for regarding bullet type, weight, powder charge, COAL, etc., I just find another manual that will. I don't make up or substitute.

Intermingle as in, if they are the SAME powder, then I should be able to use the charge weight for the Win 231 and use it for the HP 38 and vice versa. Granted that they're close enough, and the fact that the manuals "max" are still probably erring on the side of safety, that you'd probably be safe nonetheless. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about if they're identical or not. Beyond lot differences, I don't think they're identical, just very close.

 

[Charlie]

I see what you're saying and agree they are not always listed the same. The reality is, we will never know for certain. Again, I don't substitute one powder for another on my own. I just look for a different manual and can usually find what I'm looking for. I'm a little confused by your burn rate references. Please straighten me out. I thought the burn rate chart for powders listed (1 through 146) indicated the particular rate compared to the others. Number 15 on the burn rate chart will always be number 15 unless a powder is deleted or added, right?

Edit to add: The Hogdon Burn Rate Chart lists HP-38 at #28 and WIN 231 as #29. Do these numbers change?

 

[rsayloriii]

Burn Rate Chart is a relative chart. Powder X is faster than Powder Y which is faster than Powder Z. Thus, #1 is X, #2 is Y, and #3 is Z. The closer to #1, the faster the burn. The farther up the chart, closer to #3 (or whatever the highest number on the chart is), the slower the burn. The closer the powders are to each other on the chart, the more they behave similarly.

 

[Vaquero]

Why would one chart have hp38 listed as faster, and another chart have 231 listed as faster?

 

[Charlie]

Burn Rate Chart is a relative chart. Powder X is faster than Powder Y which is faster than Powder Z. Thus, #1 is X, #2 is Y, and #3 is Z. The closer to #1, the faster the burn. The farther up the chart, closer to #3 (or whatever the highest number on the chart is), the slower the burn. The closer the powders are to each other on the chart, the more they behave similarly.

I understand that, but you gave different burn rates for three loads. How can the relative burn rate change with the load? The burn rate chart is not a relative chart. It doesn't change unless a powder is added or deleted. From fastest to slowest is all it is rating. You gave three different burn rates for three different loads and I just don't know where you got them. The burn rate is the burn rate compared to the other powders and it does not change unless one is added or deleted. I'm not challenging you, I honestly don't understand.

 

[rsayloriii]

Why would one chart have hp38 listed as faster, and another chart have 231 listed as faster?

Typo? Maybe according to their testing? Just another reason why it's best to have as many manuals as you can.

 

[Charlie]

Why would one chart have hp38 listed as faster, and another chart have 231 listed as faster?

I think it's, 'cause using different sources (Hornady, Lee, etc.). Which just shows the inaccuracy or "flexibility" of the powder.

I really think we are mostly in agreement. And because we can't prove one powder is the same as the other, we are assuming it is not (which is not a bad thing). I think they are the same but I'm not going to load anything switched our between the two. I don't experiment with loads except within the load data parameters.

 

[rsayloriii]

I understand that, but you gave different burn rates for three loads. How can the relative burn rate change with the load? The burn rate chart is not a relative chart. It doesn't change unless a powder is added or deleted. From fastest to slowest is all it is rating. You gave three different burn rates for three different loads and I just don't know where you got them. The burn rate is the burn rate compared to the other powders and it does not change unless one is added or deleted. I'm not challenging you, I honestly don't understand.

The burn rate isn't per load, it's what the chart in the manual listed. If there's different powders on one chart that are not on another chart, then the overall ranking can change. If there are "3" powders listed in chart one that are faster than powder X that are not listed in chart two, then powder X will be bumped down "3" spots in chart one versus chart two.

 

[Charlie]

I understand that ................ really I do. I just assumed you used a "single" burn chart to make your example earlier. I should never assume anything. :greed:

 

[rsayloriii]

I understand that ................ really I do. I just assumed you used a "single" burn chart to make your example earlier. I should never assume anything. :greed:

Nope ... That's why I listed the burn rates under the manual I got them from. My apologies if it wasn't clear. I tried to keep everything separated out and as even as possible (same round, same powders, same FPS, same bullet weight ... though I couldn't do it on that one since the last manual didn't list the two powders for the previous bullet weight).