Tundra recall - engine build quality issue

[Brains]

That's definitely the argument. If something fails, which is generally less frequent, it will cost more. Over time does it even out?

 

[jmohme]

There's a lot of benefit to running features through 'computers'. Not only for the usability but safety and durability as well. An example, Kia/Hyundai have recalled a shit ton of vehicles because their seat motors will catch on fire if the button sticks. I don't know how Kias are engineered, but ostensibly it is 'simple' - battery, fuse, button, motor. The motor never exceeds the fuse rating, whether it is moving or not so no protection there. You can't see or feel the motors buried under the seat, so you don't know if something is wrong. Over time the motor either fails or in a few cases has apparently started the car on fire. Not ideal.

But if you drive the motors through a software controlled module with current monitoring, you can not only use a simple timeout (motor should never be active for more than n seconds to move the seat between limits), but you can also use current monitoring to know exactly when the seat stops moving, and in each case shut off power. Motors last longer, module can tell you if something seems wrong (e.g. motor never runs more than n seconds in either direction before stopping, seat may be jammed), and all kinds of other things. I would argue that if you're going to have something beyond a manual seat track, running the motors through a controller just makes good sense.

That logic is applied all over the place in modern cars. Does it make them more complex? Sure. Does it make them better? If applied sensibly, also sure. If German, all bets are off. If British, it won't work in the first place. If Italian, they'll only get it if the Germans donate it.

I agree with what you are saying.

No doubt that electronic controls by ECM have thier advantage, just as electronic engine cotrols have brought engines and to an amazing level of performace, efficiency, and reliability.

The down side is that when things do fail, it is no longer fixed with a simple fuse replacement and in most cases, the average car owner is not even capable of diagnosing a problem. The fix may still be simple and cheap, but the cost of diagnostics and down time are also a factor.
And I won't even get into the fact that many cars are just motorized iPads. iPads that are so integrated into the functions of the automobile that the cars almost won't operate without them.
I am not even sure if my wifes Tundra would start without an internet connection.

Dump that car before the warranty expires and get yourself a new rolling iPad with extended warranty.

 

[Lead Belly]

Computers make everything better and worse, at the same time.

The controller can have a multimeter built-in that determines if the motor is stuck, overhaeating, drawing too much current and disable.

The controller can also have wrong embedded code, poor solder joints, bad connectors or faulty component that cause it to fail.

This is diagram from Kia Telluride 2020-2022 seat

 

[oldag]

That's definitely the argument. If something fails, which is generally less frequent, it will cost more. Over time does it even out?

If you take into account the time I spent under the hood, I would take today's cars from the standpoint of reliability/cost optimization.

 

[OldPhart]

In '64, a Rambler American with a 196cuin engine got 38-40 miles to the gallon. New cars of the same size get maybe a third less. How can you burn MORE fuel and get LESS pollution?

I worked in a service station as a kid in the 60's. Those Rambler sixes had a 7 main bearing crank and as long as you changed the oil regularly, they would last forever.

To the OP's point, most folks think I'm stupid/wasteful/whatever when I tell them I change oil on a new vehicle as soon as I get it home and again at 500 and 1,000 miles. Also install a magnetic drain plug. Overkill to be sure but I've never had any oil related issues going back to my first car in 1968.

 

[Brains]

I've had precisely one oil related engine failure in my years of car ownership, and that was the original shortblock in my 98 Firebird Formula. I had already done heads/cam on the car, and raised the RPM limiter. The oil pump worked well - almost too well. Kind of a known issue in those years, if you were low on oil and ran the engine at high RPM's, you could drain the sump and start pulling air. By the time you notice the oil pressure gauge drop to zero it was often too late. Such was the case for me, one day coming home from work I was pushing it pretty hard and hadn't checked or changed the oil in a bit. Early LS1's had a propensity to pull a lot of oil through the PCV and could be a quart low in 3,000 miles. So the perfect set of conditions, all relating back to an issue I was well aware of and could have prevented. Long story short, I lost oil pressure at 6800rpm and wiped out a couple rod bearings.

Of course that was a good excuse to build a forged bottom end that could take all the nitrous I cared to throw at it.

 

[G O B]

^^^^ A 1 qt accumulator, with a solenoid valve timed to the ignition is something I recommend for ANY vehicle that is used hard, or a long term driver.

 

[Renegade]

My wife drives a Tundra with the turbocharged V6. It's long term reliability is not an issue to me because I told her when she got it that I do no care how much she likes it. It is getting dumped before warranty goes out.

Many reports of Dealers refusing take-in trades on these vehicles.

 

[jmohme]

I worked in a service station as a kid in the 60's. Those Rambler sixes had a 7 main bearing crank and as long as you changed the oil regularly, they would last forever.

To the OP's point, most folks think I'm stupid/wasteful/whatever when I tell them I change oil on a new vehicle as soon as I get it home and again at 500 and 1,000 miles. Also install a magnetic drain plug. Overkill to be sure but I've never had any oil related issues going back to my first car in 1968.

In all of my years in the industry, I do not recall even one engine failure related to too many or early oil changes.

 

[dsgrey]

In all of my years in the industry, I do not recall even one engine failure related to too many or early oil changes.

Me either. Even when we had cardboard oil cans and would just re-use the chrome self-tapping spout across all grades of oils.

 

[OldPhart]

Me either. Even when we had cardboard oil cans and would just re-use the chrome self-tapping spout across all grades of oils.

I still have 2 of them although I can't recall the last time I used one. The cool move was to hold on to the spout and hit the can against the inside of a trash can. That automatically dumped the can into the trash.

 

[oldag]

A fellow I know was just quoted $4800 to replace the water pump on a Ford small SUV.

 

[jmohme]

A fellow I know was just quoted $4800 to replace the water pump on a Ford small SUV.

Like I already mentioned. Dump them before warranty has expired.

Or do like I do and just drive old pickups instead of rolling iPads and fix them myself.

 

[OldPhart]

A fellow I know was just quoted $4800 to replace the water pump on a Ford small SUV.

I've been an accountant for 45 years.......all this time I've been in the wrong line of work.

 

[dsgrey]

A fellow I know was just quoted $4800 to replace the water pump on a Ford small SUV.

Duratec v6 with the water pump inside the engine. When it fails, it usually mixes coolant with the oil so there's a class action lawsuit on that bad design.

 

[TreyG-20]

I've been an accountant for 45 years.......all this time I've been in the wrong line of work.

Unfortunately the guys who do the work and spent the time and money on the education to perform the work will be lucky to see 2% of that $4,800.

 

[oldag]

Like I already mentioned. Dump them before warranty has expired.

Or do like I do and just drive old pickups instead of rolling iPads and fix them myself.

Or drive cars that are ten to twenty years old and hang onto them forever. I hope not to ever buy another car. Hopefully what I have will outlast me.

 

[jmohme]

Or drive cars that are ten to twenty years old and hang onto them forever. I hope not to ever buy another car. Hopefully what I have will outlast me.

I think thats what I meant by driving old pickups.

 

[jmohme]

Duratec v6 with the water pump inside the engine. When it fails, it usually mixes coolant with the oil so there's a class action lawsuit on that bad design.

Caterpilar Diesels had water pump that was gear driven, so it could dump coolant into the engine oil also. I don't think I ever saw it happen, but I always suspected that it could.

The original Ford Escort 1.6 liter. The water pump was not internal, but was driven buy the timing belt. The pump would fail, the belt would slip or break, then the pistons and valve would get to love each other.
The first one I towed into our shop got all new valves and guides and 4 new pistons. Oh yeah a water pump and timing belt too.

Just two examples. I am sure there are more.

The people that design things have certain criteria they follow when and cost of repairs to the end user is usually not one of those criteria, and if it is, it at the bottom of the list way below the line item make it last though the warranty period

 

[TexMex247]

A bunch of the Ford engines run the chain driven water pump. It actually has a channel built into the design that allows the coolant to leak out behind the alternator. So as the bearing fails it should leak steadily out of the engine well before contaminating the oil. Calls for around 10 hours but I typically get them done in 8 or less. It's actually a pretty straightforward repair albeit time consuming.