Theory that CHL+ Concealed handgun = I can carry an illegal knife/club

[Kimber_me_timbers]

Its legal to OC a rifle.. but if I carry my M-4 carbine with the 100rd beta mag in it on my back down commerce street in downtown dallas, I would bet money that I would be clapped in irons and hauled off. No charges would be filed and I would get my rifle back, but I would still be arrested, still have the.paperwork to do, the whole nine yards... the moral here is, just because its legal doesn't make it a good idea. Unless you're just another one of those attention whores with asperations of becomming the next youtube sensation..

 

[matefrio]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Unless you're just another one of those attention whores with asperations of becomming the next youtube sensation..

Look at me, no camera. I've OCed a rifle down town Houston without issue, Brown Convention center from parking lot to show no problem. Having a blade over 5.5in shouldn't be an issue either.

 

[Texan2]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

I am wondering where you got the idea that cops cant OC?

 

[M. Sage]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Just as you dont know EVERYTHING about every car on the road, there is no feasable way for any human to know EVERY law and its proper application....there are volumes of laws and after years of enforcing them I still learn new things....I would imagine that is common among mechanics as well.

You're right - I don't know everything. Nobody in my industry does. You know what we do when we come across something we don't know? We either find out or we pass on the job.

The basic rule of thumb is if you aren't sure, don't do it. The same needs to apply here. That's all I want to see.

The standards that some wish to impose on officers is beyond absurd.

I respectfully disagree. I find it absurd that a federal agent can take a rare and expensive supercar (that belongs to someone else) for what was very obviously a joyride, wreck it, and neither he nor his employer be accountable for his irresponsible actions.

This is a law that was poorly worded and has yet to be tested. Common sense would dictate that the intent of a CHL was not to carry an illegal knife, but the way the law is worded it allows you to.

What is there to test, exactly? The wording is clear, it just seems murky because you have to bounce from one section to another to read it all. And that's not really anything out of the ordinary.

Indeed there are. And we are talking about a bizarre spin on a law that was probably an oversight that has yet to get tested in court. so if an officer arrested someone for carrying an illegal knife, I would hardly call it an arrogant refusal to learn the tools of his trade.

Good intention doesn't count. Only the end result.

On one side of the badge, ignorance of the law is not excused. I have an alternate proposal. If we don't want to hold officers liable for arrests made on incomplete knowledge of the law, how about we start making ignorance of the law a defense to prosecution?

I hate any kind of hypocrisy, and that includes double standards.

Most cops I know dont get involved in technicalities generally. And this whole CHL+gun+lightsaber argument is exactly that. A technicality.

Law is technicality.

 

[Bithabus]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

, just because its legal doesn't make it a good idea.

This is precisely the problem we are discussing. Citizens should not have to fear Police enforcement for engaging in legal activities.

 

[Texan2]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

On one side of the badge, ignorance of the law is not excused. I have an alternate proposal. If we don't want to hold officers liable for arrests made on incomplete knowledge of the law, how about we start making ignorance of the law a defense to prosecution?

I hate any kind of hypocrisy, and that includes double standards.



Law is technicality.

Ignorance of the law IS used regularly with great success. Both on the street and in the courtroom. While mechanics can pass on a job, cops cant when dispatched they dont get to pass on answering a call. That having been said, most I know wont hammer people for odd and unused statutes.

I know that California has left a bad taste with you, but those that treat you like shit are the exception not the rule, most police treat people fairly and give them the benefit of the doubt if the violator will let them.

 

[Bithabus]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

I am wondering where you got the idea that cops cant OC?

Same place he got the idea that non-cops can't carry Tasers.

 

[Texan2]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

this thread is an example of how an incident that has never happened gets people all worked up and blasting the cops who havent even done anything wrong...
Relax.
I would swear some folks on here are like a mouse trap, ready to snap as soon as the police subject arises.

Deep breaths.......

 

[M. Sage]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

In regard to the idea of a "test case". What is there to test? Without some of the clutter that doesn't apply...

This is 46.02(all of it). The definitions are in 46.01, but don't matter if the law doesn't apply.


46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club. (b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor. (c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

This is 46.15(b). The only thing to read before (b) is the section number and title, since it starts right off with (a), which doesn't apply:

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

Interestingly, here's (b)(2):

(2) is traveling;

So the "traveling exemption" applies to clubs and knives, too.

The CHL bit...

(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;
The only thing that makes this confusing is all the chaff you have to get past to find the relevant parts of the law.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm

There's the entirety of 46. If we're wrong, show us exactly where. If it's got some kind of ambiguity that I'm missing, I'd love to see it.

 

[M. Sage]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Ignorance of the law IS used regularly with great success. Both on the street and in the courtroom. While mechanics can pass on a job, cops cant when dispatched they dont get to pass on answering a call. That having been said, most I know wont hammer people for odd and unused statutes.

I know that California has left a bad taste with you, but those that treat you like shit are the exception not the rule, most police treat people fairly and give them the benefit of the doubt if the violator will let them.

I'm not talking about answering a call (whole other topic...). I'm talking about making an arrest. I'm talking about taking someone's liberty away, even temporarily, when you don't know that it should be done.

 

[M. Sage]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Like I said, that's a different subject. We had a discussion about obligation to act, Warren, etc. a while ago.

 

[Kimber_me_timbers]

I am wondering where you got the idea that cops cant OC?

Im wondering where you got the idea that an off duty peace officer, whether in his jurisdiction or not, has rights that surpass a civilians in terms of open carry. A cops right to open carry is a function of the office he serves, if youre off the clock, yaint servin that office are you?

 

[Bithabus]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Im wondering where you got the idea that an off duty peace officer, whether in his jurisdiction or not, has rights that surpass a civilians in terms of open carry. A cops right to open carry is a function of the office he serves, if youre off the clock, yaint servin that office are you?

Peace Officers are exempt from 46.02 and 46.03. They can carry anywhere in Texas openly or concealed, off duty or on duty.

 

[Texan2]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Im wondering where you got the idea that an off duty peace officer, whether in his jurisdiction or not, has rights that surpass a civilians in terms of open carry. A cops right to open carry is a function of the office he serves, if youre off the clock, yaint servin that office are you?

I got that idea by reading the law. Cops CAN carry open 24/7. Hopefully everybody will be able to in the future.

Nowhere in the law does it say cops can only open carry on duty, indeed it says quite the opposite.

 

[Texan2]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Actually, because of Warren v. D.C. there is no obligation to answer a call. LEO/LEA are not responsible for your safety. Also, the officers have discretion in making any arrest, unless it's a felony. Job discretion, especially when working with the public, is key to building a good community. Someone said just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's smart to do. Well, the same could be applied towards a LEO, just because it's illegal, doesn't mean they need to be arrested.

However, the topic at hand is a black and white issue. The law says what the law is, any action taken by a LEO outside of the law is unlawful, and while still technically legal because LEA/LEO get a free pass the first few times, once they have training on the matter they can no longer claim Qualified Immunity.

By policy, most departments I know will not let officers ignore calls. But I agree with most of the rest of your post.

 

[Texan2]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

I had to go look back over the thread to see if and what we disagreed on.....the funny thing is that I think we DO agree. I just think that the legislature could have been much more clear in their intent when writing the law, but I often take issue with how some laws are written
It seems that the only point that we may not agree on is qualified immunity for officers acting in good faith. I cant speak for each and every department but making an arrest for an offense that doesnt exist (such as the one we are talking about) would result in a suspension in most places I know of and probably termination if it happened again.
I think we are all on the same side here.
Qualified immunity is there for a reason for officers and I think it needs to remain that way.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Re: The Return of the Pocket Sword

Wow, just logged back in a minute ago and realized this got split out of the original thread and blown up!!!! I definitely didn't want to blow up the original thread it started in and derail it. Once again, best moderators ever.

...
"The right to carry a bowie-knife for lawful defense is secured, and must be admitted. It is an exceeding destructive weapon. It is difficult to defend against it, by any degree of bravery, or any amount of skill. The gun or pistol may miss its aim, and when discharged, its dangerous character is lost, or diminished at least. The sword may be parried. With thse weapons men fight for the sake of the combat, to satisfy the laws of honor, not necessarily with the intention to kill, or with a certainty of killing, when the intention exists. The bowie-knife differs from these in its device and design; it is the instrument of almost certain death. He who carries such a weapon, for lawful defense, as he may, makes himself more dangerous to the rights of others, considering the frailties of human nature, than if he carried a less dangerous weapon."

This make me want to go buy a big ass knife and carry it!


I guess the bottom line for me is that 99% of LEOs are reasonable guys. If you're non-threatening and respectful explaining why its legal then I would bet most are going to at least make a call to see if your right before hauling you in. I dont really think its a big deal. Just print this out and stick it in your wallet or memorize it if you're going to do it...

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:​

(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;
​

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club

PENAL CODEÂ*Â*CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS

---

 

[Acera]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

From the conversations, this reminds me of the Montgomery County Deputy, supported by a couple ADA's, that has stated he would arrest for an out of state CHL being used by a Texas resident. OK, we all agreed what the law said, and it appeared to be very clear to all but that officer. Now I look at this law and how it's a mess with a lot of room for misinterpretation and think, damn you get the wrong guy and you are hosed. These are serious life changing convictions if you find a judge and jury that is not of the same mind you are in interpreting the law. At the very least, you will have had the unfortunate experience of being run through the system.

This make me want to go buy a big ass knife and carry it!

LOL, me not so much on the carry, but hell yes on the buy part. I did order from Sears a big ass Buck Hoodlum knife. Saw one at the Conroe show for $200 and liked the heft and feel, found it online for a lot less. And, no it will not be stuck in my pants next to my carry gun as I go get ice cream from Kroger, LOL.

http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=product.detail&ProductID=3947


(BTW I understand that this is the model that has been issued to some Border Patrol agents in the valley for dealing with the Mesquite brush and other things that they encounter from day to day)

 

[Texan2]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

There are officers, such as the Deputy Constable in Montgomery County that will overstep from time to time. They usually weed themselves out of LE in time. I dont know of any cops who are out to arrest people carrying knives.

 

[Kimber_me_timbers]

After a little digging, the answer is, there is no law or mandate related to how or when a commissioned officer carries. Po-po do what po-po wanna do!