Theory that CHL+ Concealed handgun = I can carry an illegal knife/club

[Mexican_Hippie]

Too bad it's illegal to carry that in Texas. Nice read though. We just need to get some New Hampshire style knife legislation here.

5.5" is legal in Texas, and length doesn't matter if you're carrying on your CHL because you're exempt. There's a ton of threads on it.

 

[Rum Runner]

Re: The Return of the Pocket Sword

5.5" is legal in Texas, and length doesn't matter if you're carrying on your CHL because you're exempt. There's a ton of threads on it.

I thought that was untested semantics/conjecture.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Re: The Return of the Pocket Sword

http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/knives-flashlights-survival/16446-legal-knife.html <--- Click here

 

[Rum Runner]

Re: The Return of the Pocket Sword

http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/knives-flashlights-survival/16446-legal-knife.html <--- Click here

I am extremely familiar with this thread and many others on these and other forums. I also agree that according to the "letter of the law" it is correct. However, sometimes the "intent of the law" is used. I have never seen any case law to support the opinons of those that think a CHL+handgun=I can carry an illegal club or knife. Until I do, you can be the guinea pig, not me. And I think it does a disservice to others who may not understand the complexities to make it seem like a black and white issue.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Re: The Return of the Pocket Sword

OK, I will be your guinea pig. I don't plan on getting stopped for anything so I probably won't be a good one though.

I'm not doing anyone a disservice. We're all grownups here. People can research and make their own decisions, especially given the link I posted that also links to the laws and discussions.

If someone makes a personal legal decision based on an internet forum post then they're a fool.

 

[Acera]

Re: The Return of the Pocket Sword

I was referring to the length. I understand that the 5.5 version is legal, but the OP talked about a 6 inch one. Need to see a bit more on carrying it under the protection of a CHL, my class did not cover that area. Not going to risk it over a knife, or an asp, baton, club, etc.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Re: The Return of the Pocket Sword

I was referring to the length. I understand that the 5.5 version is legal, but the OP talked about a 6 inch one. Need to see a bit more on carrying it under the protection of a CHL, my class did not cover that area. Not going to risk it over a knife, or an asp, baton, club, etc.

In the article is says they no longer offer separate 5 or 6 inch versions, they only have the 5.5 now so you're good to go if you want the new Voyager XL

 

[Acera]

Re: The Return of the Pocket Sword

Thanks Mexican_Hippie.

Also I just read section 46.15 of the Texas Penal Code and I don't see where a CHL allows you to carry an illegal knife in normal day to day activities. I understand the provisions for hunting, historical reenactment, etc. just don't see it for everyday carry with a CHL license. Help would be appreciated.

 

[matefrio]

Re: The Return of the Pocket Sword

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:​

(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;​

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm

 

[Acera]

Re: The Return of the Pocket Sword

But do you have to be carrying the handgun also, along with the knife?? It seems a little convoluted. No mention of other items, I think an over zealous prosecutor would have a field day. JMHO, That is how I read it, hope I am wrong. It just makes me wonder, because it does not allow an illegal handgun to be carried. You can only carry lawful weapons, so why would they allow an unlawful weapon in the form of a knife to be carried?

Reinforces my statement we need New Hampshire laws regarding knives, and carrying of handguns.

 

[Rum Runner]

Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Edit Irrelevant now, thank you Dcav.

 

[Rum Runner]

Re: The Return of the Pocket Sword

Edit: Irrelevant now, thank you Dcav.

 

[matefrio]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Theory? Yes, you must be carrying a handgun of the proper type as well to carry the others.

 

[Rum Runner]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

I don't mean to imply a negative. I just called it a theory as I have seen no case law where it was tested. Has their been any?

EDIT: NOTE: Due to moderation, it looks like MH made the title of the thread, he did not. I am responsible for the wording.

 

[majormadmax]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Based on section of the Penal Code matefrio posted earlier, it appears that if you have a CHL and are carrying, you can carry what is normally an "illegal" knife as well!

It's easier to understand in this order. First, section 46.02 defining what weapons are illegal to carry...

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club

Then section 46.15 on the nonapplicability of 46.02...

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
​

(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;​

​

Now, my opinion (for what it's worth) is that this was written to say that having a CHL allows a person to carry handgun; but as it is written it appears that it allows for any illegal weapon as long as you have a CHL and are carrying (note that subsection 6 says a person is doing both).

Honestly, I don't think the latter was the intent of the exception; but until the law is changed it leaves room for interpretation. I for one would not want to be the guinea pig for the test case...but the mere premise of an "illegal knife" is ridiculous in the first place.
Also, be sure not to flip off the cop who is arresting you for carrying that illegal knife!

Cheers! M2

​

​

 

[matefrio]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

I don't mean to imply a negative. I just called it a theory as I have seen no case law where it was tested. Has their been any?

Has anyone been arrested with any of the items under 46.02 including a handgun while holding a valid a CHL? That'd be the case law.

I don't there will ever be case law. District Attorney would most likely throw it out before trial.

 

[Rum Runner]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

I think we can agree that from a purely grammatical/deductive logic standpoint, the way it is written clearly says "No 46.02 if Concealed handgun and CHL".

My problem is that if you accept this, you have to think that instead of "is carrying a concealed handgun" intending to clarify which item under 46.02 is non-applicable, that someone intended to make it so that if I have a CHL and choose not to carry a concealed handgun that I cannot carry a illegal knife or club. That makes no sense.

So then you have to wonder which was really intended. That a handgun is exempt if you have a CHL, or if you have a CHL then you can carry other deadly weapons which someone without a CHL couldn't.

I totally agree with M2 that the whole "illegal knife" thing makes no sense. I mean how can a Bowie Knife we illegal in TX of all places? Jim Bowie would do backflips in his grave if he hadn't been cremated.

Even if there was an example of a CHL holder being arrested with an illegal knife/club and charges were dropped or AG would not file...whatever, then I would feel much better. I have not seen any evidence of that and this has been on the books this way for a long time now.

 

[txinvestigator]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

You might also note that illegal knives and clubs are no longer illegal to carry in a motor vehicle you own or is under your control, CHL or not.

Case law is not established by a person acquitted at trial or convicted. To have case law on this issue a person with a CHL would have had to be arrested for UCW for carry an illegal knife or club while carrying his CHL and handgum, convicted at trial, then overturned at the appelate level.

 

[matefrio]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

I mean how can a Bowie Knife we illegal in TX of all places? Jim Bowie would do backflips in his grave if he hadn't been cremated.

If we're honest about it it was about armed blacks at the time with the same justification as "Saturday Night Specials" being ban from import.

Here is a small portion of the argument of Attorney General Roberts in the Texas Supreme Court in Cockrum v. State, 24 Tex 394 (1859).

"The right to carry a bowie-knife for lawful defense is secured, and must be admitted. It is an exceeding destructive weapon. It is difficult to defend against it, by any degree of bravery, or any amount of skill. The gun or pistol may miss its aim, and when discharged, its dangerous character is lost, or diminished at least. The sword may be parried. With thse weapons men fight for the sake of the combat, to satisfy the laws of honor, not necessarily with the intention to kill, or with a certainty of killing, when the intention exists. The bowie-knife differs from these in its device and design; it is the instrument of almost certain death. He who carries such a weapon, for lawful defense, as he may, makes himself more dangerous to the rights of others, considering the frailties of human nature, than if he carried a less dangerous weapon."

 

[Texas42]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

If we're honest about it it was about armed blacks at the time with the same justification as "Saturday Night Specials" being ban from import.

Here is a small portion of the argument of Attorney General Roberts in the Texas Supreme Court in Cockrum v. State, 24 Tex 394 (1859).

"The right to carry a bowie-knife for lawful defense is secured, and must be admitted. It is an exceeding destructive weapon. It is difficult to defend against it, by any degree of bravery, or any amount of skill. The gun or pistol may miss its aim, and when discharged, its dangerous character is lost, or diminished at least. The sword may be parried. With thse weapons men fight for the sake of the combat, to satisfy the laws of honor, not necessarily with the intention to kill, or with a certainty of killing, when the intention exists. The bowie-knife differs from these in its device and design; it is the instrument of almost certain death. He who carries such a weapon, for lawful defense, as he may, makes himself more dangerous to the rights of others, considering the frailties of human nature, than if he carried a less dangerous weapon."

wow. . . .