Odessa and the DEMAND for more gun laws!

[Bobk]

How about the golden rule of treating others the way that you would like to be treated. What happened to respecting others views even if you didn’t agree with them? That was the America I grew up in.

Everybody thinks that you can control people but you can’t. You only manipulate or influence them, but you have to be careful because you don’t necessarily know how they are going to respond.

You never know how they interpret what you are wanting them to do. Never know what’s going on behind the eyes.

People complain about mass shootings let them go to Afghanistan or Iraq. We got problems but they could be a hell of a lot worse.

My edict everyone must live in some third world shit hole for 4 years.

 

[Kar98]

I was watching the news last night at the gym and well, good thing I didn't have sound on the TV. FtW Mayor was at a conference of mayors calling for more control. She claimed she has shot a match or two and her husband shoots a lot and they have talked to no one that is against universal background checks. .....

Dana Loesch did a thread on this yesterday. It's all in the phrasing of the question. "Would you agree that it's a bad idea to give every Tom Dick and Harry a gun, no questions asked?" See? 93% of the people support UBCs!

 

[Wildcat Diva]

If the person who has mental problems can't pass the questions on the 4473 because of his condition it should be the same as the rules regarding Felons. No firearm can be accessible to the restricted person, either locked in a truly secure safe or kept off premises. If the owner loses control of the weapon and it is used illegally he is as guilty as the person committing the murders.

I an sick and tired of Liberal Politicians proposing rules and restrictions against my Rights because people with known issues are able to become mass murderers. I do not agree to give up anything because of these disturbed individuals! No one in their right mind goes out and kills a bunch of innocent people.

The few people I know who suffer with depression suffer with it all their lives and when their medication stops working or they can't afford it any longer anything can happen. The person I know who seems to have the worst depression talks about killing herself often. Her ex husband was accused of stealing the handgun her father gave her but I believe he took it to make it harder for the mother of his child to harm herself.

Sometimes families have to make those calls. It should be up to the families for the most part because when outside folks start to make these judgements they are placed in positions of authority that most of the time they do not deserve to be in. There are exceptions, those that show no self control and end up in court due to their extreme behavior or symptoms.

The mental health question on 4473 only mentions “adjudicated as mental defective.” This is an involuntary admission with a court hearing. Mental health records do not have anything really to do with 4473 nor “mental health issues.” It’s all a court thing really.

If mental health providers are going to be asked to gauge what rights people can no longer have, you’re going to have to decide on some guidelines, very specific ones (not just “issues”) and what those could end up being SCARES ME. Doctors and therapists don’t deserve to be able to say who does and who does not get to have their right to own a firearm taken away.

 

[easy rider]

Dana Loesch did a thread on this yesterday. It's all in the phrasing of the question. "Would you agree that it's a bad idea to give every Tom Dick and Harry a gun, no questions asked?" See? 93% of the people support UBCs!

Whose giving guns? I had to buy all mine, dammit!




Oops, I mean until the great boating disaster of 2019 that is.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

Just because a kid goes to residential treatment at Waco Center for Youth (yes I’m familiar with the facility, have a kid client we are referring there at the moment) this doesn’t mean they will never be able to own a firearm.

Kids get referred for things like just constantly disrupts the class (destroyed property, flipped a desk over) and is constantly acts like a self-entitled brat and the parents can’t/ won’t control them. If they have legal involvement, that must be cleared of pending charges before they go. We don’t take people’s right to own a firearm away for life because of shit like that. We don’t say, oh well, your life is over, because of shit like that.

Once someone shows enough lack of self control that they commit a felony as an adult (or a tried as an adult kind of scenario), then that is the threshold that bars them from firearm ownership as it stands right now, right?

The mental health bar SHOULD be high, as there is no specific diagnosis or chain of behaviors/ symptoms that accurately predicts violence unless we are all right with getting into pre-crime. I’m not ok with that.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

If we are going to set guidelines for removal of firearms due to strictly defined problems with “mental health issue,” once someone’s rights are taken away for say “mental issues” can they ever prove themselves well enough to get them back?

What in their right mind provider would want to sign on the dotted line saying that a patient is fine for getting firearms back?

Any provider willing to sign their license to that I WOULD NOT TRUST to be competent to do so. Shyster-y if so, and bad judgment besides. It’s a CYA thing for the provider to not give the go ahead, EVER. We speak to the observation that people seem stable or that diseases are in remission. We don’t declare them sane.

This problem of CYA fear would result in NOT having true due process for the person trying to reestablish their rights.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

At the very bottom of this link, it says that Waco Center for Youth can’t even accept you if you have the most serious problems, violent, psychotic, delinquent, none of that.

So definitely having been a resident of Waco Center for Youth on its face shouldn’t seal the deal for removing someone’s rights.

http://txrules.elaws.us/rule/title25_chapter412_sec.412.174

b) A person may not be admitted to Waco Center for Youth if the person:



(1) has been found to have engaged in delinquent conduct or conduct indicating a need for supervision under the Texas Family Code, Title 3;


(2) is acutely psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or seriously violent; or


(3) is determined to have mental retardation

 

[Wildcat Diva]

There are plenty of weird little fuckers who I personally have a gut feeling about that something is off. However, hardly any of these people turn out over the years to do anything seriously bad. So due to them triggering my gut, I (if allowed to do so, with new guidelines) potentially could have with legal force taken away their rights for a false positive.

We can’t run mental health treatment like that. No one will want to have treatment, and no one will trust providers enough to give us the time of day. It’s already hard enough to get folks to agree to seek mental health help and participate in a genuine way as opposed to BSing through it.

Also, interesting side note fact: the professor who taught my stress management class in the 1990’s went on to murder his stepfather with a hammer. I think he had a brain tumor though, that messed him up and no one suspected that was gonna go off the deep end like that.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ch.../UHCL-prof-held-in-Ky-for-slaying-9944057.php

 

[cycleguy2300]

Do you routinely interact with people with severe mental illness, untreated and without yet any medications to help? Because I DO, on a daily basis. And it sucks.

Assaultive behavior, self harm, self hatred, panic attacks, psychosis, suicide. All this due to untreated mental illness.

Untreated mental illness sucks.

I’m NOT for making treatment harder to get. That will be BAD.

I also interact with untreated mental illness on a daily basis. It is much like any other disease, left untreated it gets worse and harder to treat.

The medications don't cause suicidal/homicidal behaviors, they prevent them.

They fact is there are some truly evil people who will attempt to cause as much harm as they are capable of and no medication or red flag laws or background checks or anything short of death will stop them.

As a society, I think we like to play off evil as "crazy". It makes it easier for those who do not believe in God, Right and Wrong, Good and Evil, to avoid a standard of behavior and replace it with feelings. If it is a mental heath problem (some of it is, don't get me wrong) they can avoid coming to terms with the fact some people are evil and the counter-fact that if you accept evil (corrupt behavior), you accept there must be a correct or righteous behavior it is corrupted from and ultimately at the end of the argument a God .


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[cycleguy2300]

While I generally oppose more gun restrictions, no one in a home where the people you are referring to live should be allowed to possess any type of firearms! The chances of someone getting shot is just too great.

Having a mental health disease doesn't and shouldn't disqualify gun ownership.

Depression, a natural and health part of grieving, following a loved ones death -DISQUALIFIED-

Stress at work keeps you from sleeping as much as you like and your doc diagnoses you with anxiety.
-DISQUALIFIED-

You got raped when you were in college and now have PTSD.
-DISQUALIFIED-

Like the rest of our rights, they don't go away just because it makes it easier for someone else. Would you really be OK with the 4th Amnd not applying to anyone with a prior convection?

When someone in a mental health crisis does require a Police Officer Emergency Detention, which is essentially a civil arrest where the person is taken to hospital to get a mental health evaluation with no criminal charges, nothing goes on your 'record', no forced meds, police can seize firearms in the immediate posession of the person.

The difference between this and what you propose is vast. With a POED there is an affidavit (like a probable cause affidavit for a criminal arrest) sworn to by the officer and the firearms are able to be given to family or friends if they are on scene or submitted into safekeeping for IMMEDIATE return to the person once they are out of crisis.

To say someone with mental illness should not be allowed to own a gun is scary and is the latest lie of they anti-gunners.

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[cycleguy2300]

No, guns are just tools, mere presents of an available firearm doesn't possess someone to harm others. Drugs can be mind altering and people can do things on drugs they would never do without them.

If you could spell, your argument would still be just as wrong

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[avvidclif]

If you could spell, your argument would still be just as wrong

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I tend do disagree. Certain statins can cause suicidal thoughts.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Sometimes families have to make those calls. It should be up to the families for the most part because when outside folks start to make these judgements they are placed in positions of authority that most of the time they do not deserve to be in. There are exceptions, those that show no self control and end up in court due to their extreme behavior or symptoms.

The mental health question on 4473 only mentions “adjudicated as mental defective.” This is an involuntary admission with a court hearing. Mental health records do not have anything really to do with 4473 nor “mental health issues.” It’s all a court thing really.

If mental health providers are going to be asked to gauge what rights people can no longer have, you’re going to have to decide on some guidelines, very specific ones (not just “issues”) and what those could end up being SCARES ME. Doctors and therapists don’t deserve to be able to say who does and who does not get to have their right to own a firearm taken away.

Just so people know, an emergency detention by a police officer does not disqualify you from owning a firearm, they have to "adjudicated" i.e. taken to a court and actually declared "mentally defective". It is not easy and should not be. Taking away people's rights should be difficult.

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[cycleguy2300]

I tend do disagree. Certain statins can cause suicidal thoughts.

There is quite a bit of debate about that...

It's like how leaves "change" color in the fall (in some parts of the world anyway...) the color was always there, it was just dominated by the chlorophyll and therefore look green.

Whether the underlying suicidal ideations were there the whole time or caused by the medication isn't clear.

Some people can't eat freaking peanut butter, that doesn't mean the peanut butter is bad and can't be used to feed most other people, it only means the person has an allergy.

Mental health medication works, but every course of action has risks and the risk of not treating with medication is MUCH higher than the risks from the medications. Just because very few have an adverse side effect, doesn't mean the medication is bad.

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[Wildcat Diva]

Just so people know, an emergency detention by a police officer does not disqualify you from owning a firearm, they have to "adjudicated" i.e. taken to a court and actually declared "mentally defective". It is not easy and should not be. Taking away people's rights should be difficult.

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Thanks for writing. Yes I was worried about this with my dad’s case, since he had a very bad MH reaction to medication (steroids) which caused the police to need to take him to the hospital, medical then transferred to psych. They had an immediate court hearing when admitted and another a week later and by that time he was better by then and let go home from psych hospital the next day, with a referral made for follow up but no requirement. The follow up outpatient doc guided him through recovery a few weeks and released him with no need to follow him for MH.

It’s not important to dad enough to hire a lawyer, but it sounds like I don’t need to consider him a prohibited person (we still have his guns he inherited from my grandad, his wife gave them to us while in hospital, and dad doesn’t know that yet). I don’t think by the nature of his hearing that that would mean he was “adjudicated mental defective.” The hospital staff says the hearing “falls off” after his release.

I wish I knew more about the process exactly.

 

[avvidclif]

There is quite a bit of debate about that...

It's like how leaves "change" color in the fall (in some parts of the world anyway...) the color was always there, it was just dominated by the chlorophyll and therefore look green.

Whether the underlying suicidal ideations were there the whole time or caused by the medication isn't clear.

Some people can't eat freaking peanut butter, that doesn't mean the peanut butter is bad and can't be used to feed most other people, it only means the person has an allergy.

Mental health medication works, but every course of action has risks and the risk of not treating with medication is MUCH higher than the risks from the medications. Just because very few have an adverse side effect, doesn't mean the medication is bad.

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There is no debate in my case. As soon as I stopped that brand of statin the thoughts went away. And are still away.

Your saying the medicine could have unleashed a hidden emotion. I'm saying it caused an emotion.

 

[mortdooley]

If you could spell, your argument would still be just as wrong

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It is called spell check and that one got past me. Allowing the unbalanced to represent us in Leftist arguments will be our undoing! "Look what happens when you don't have the government boot on your neck"! The Left doesn't want your AR, they want everything.

 

[mortdooley]

At the very bottom of this link, it says that Waco Center for Youth can’t even accept you if you have the most serious problems, violent, psychotic, delinquent, none of that.

So definitely having been a resident of Waco Center for Youth on its face shouldn’t seal the deal for removing someone’s rights.

http://txrules.elaws.us/rule/title25_chapter412_sec.412.174

b) A person may not be admitted to Waco Center for Youth if the person:



(1) has been found to have engaged in delinquent conduct or conduct indicating a need for supervision under the Texas Family Code, Title 3;


(2) is acutely psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or seriously violent; or


(3) is determined to have mental retardation

When this young man commits some horrendous crime then he will be taken seriously. He knew how to play the game when he was living at the facility in Waco. He still seems to enjoy going into the men's room at church and what he doesn't tear down he urinates on! He should be legal to buy firearms in less than a year!

 

[Wildcat Diva]

That is horrid and why we encourage parents and others to not hold
back with responding with legal or other punishing force when their children’s impulsive thoughts become serious actions.

He will have pressure to conform to the most basic social norms soon enough if he likes his freedom. If he doesn’t (have that pressure) then that’s on those in his environment.

 

[cycleguy2300]

When this young man commits some horrendous crime then he will be taken seriously. He knew how to play the game when he was living at the facility in Waco. He still seems to enjoy going into the men's room at church and what he doesn't tear down he urinates on! He should be legal to buy firearms in less than a year!

At 17 he is an adult and can be charged with criminal mischief (property damage or inconvenience: peeing on stuff would qualify in my book) or assault, or whatever and will go to big boy jail. Say if someone with the authority to trespass him from the property used reasonable force (per penal code) and was assaulted then they need to follow through with the case.

He either isn't as bad as you make him out or the people around him are way too tolerant of his in appropriate behaviors.

What I am getting at is :

Who lets him keep doing the things he is doing? Parents? Church staff/leadership? You? I learned a while back uncorrected behavior is condoned behavior... do something or you are part of the problem



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