LEO training for OC law

[txinvestigator]

If they're going to make a stop, it'd be nice to know why. "Sir, we received a man with a gun call and are required to investigate. May I see your CHL for a second so we can both be on our way?"

Bonus points for "that lady over there called" and "ma'am, come over here, I want to introduce you to this man legally carrying a firearm so you can apologize to him for the interruption you've caused."

Then hand me a card with IAD's phone number and email address so I can make the complaint after the fact about the department policy of stopping people for engaging in legal behavior.

Somehow I doubt that makes the training.

You were doing good until you got to the part about dragging the complainant over to apologize.

File all of the complaints you want.

 

[txinvestigator]

Now do you suppose they just stop and ask every OCer they see?

This is what doesn't make sense.

He doesn't know if people who are driving have car insurance, yet why wouldn't Mr. policeman pull over every car on the road to see?

Cars, specifically have been addressed by the Supreme Court in a very narrow definition. Interesting you bring up the insurance question...how about hunters and fishermen? A LEO sees you hunting he can ask for your license, can he not?

And I don't think it practical for LEOs to stop everyone they see carrying, but they certainly will if the receive a complaint.

 

[karlac]

It is easy to throw out concepts and pretend they are answers.

Which is exactly what you did ...

 

[Mreed911]

Show me in the penal code where Paramedic license or AC license is required.=

Paramedic: PC 37.11

It will take court precedent, but stopping someone for an otherwise legal act will end up being affirmed as illegal.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

A LEO sees you hunting he can ask for your license, can he not?

I suppose he can, if he sees a deer in your truck bed when you are being pulled over for something else. Or if you are suspected of trespassing, on public lands, or there seems to be other criminal activity occurring, but we are talking about OCers just going about their daily life and presumably following the law.

 

[Mreed911]

I suppose he can

He can, but for different reasons, and TXI knows this but is choosing to cloud the thread/answers.

The courts have ruled that because evidence of poaching is so easy to dispose of, exigent circumstances exists that give broader powers of LIMITED search to game wardens, along with specific requirements on what can and can't be done with the information discovered if it doesn't related specifically to a wildlife violation.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

He can, but for different reasons, and TXI knows this but is choosing to cloud the thread/answers.

The courts have ruled that because evidence of poaching is so easy to dispose of, exigent circumstances exists that give broader powers of LIMITED search to game wardens, along with specific requirements on what can and can't be done with the information discovered if it doesn't related specifically to a wildlife violation.

There is that.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

JohnnyLoco, you are done posting in this thread, since you are adding nothing to it. Slow your roll son.

BRD, no offense but, I tend to lean TXI's way in assuming the thread premise is hearsay. I understand your friend probably wanting to remain anonymous, but what are we talking about here, state, city, county LE department? The details were vague enough, it's a bit hard for it to seem like this is legit. Again, no offense, just explaining the perception based on what we've heard so far.

That being said, personally my opinion on the subject of OC is this. If a person acts, dresses, and portrays themselves in a respectable and professional manner, that can heavily influence the way a person is treated. The whole "dress for success" thing. What I mean by that is, I think the defensive carry community should have much more of a discussion on the subject of carrying in a "professional" manner. For example, although I will likely never choose to OC as that's not my personal preference, if I ever did, it would be with no less than a Safariland ALS/SLS holster, or similar quality retention holster. From my own layman's perspective (and I fully entertain the possibility that I'm wrong), I have to believe that if a LEO comes across someone that is OC'ing with good quality gear, the person is carrying themselves in a professional manner, not holding their long gun in hand in what could be construed as a threatening manner, etc.....I mean I have to believe they stand a better chance of being treated a bit differently than the average uninformed guy using a one-size-fits-all holster, SKS on a single point dragging the ground.... Know what I mean? I mean, it shouldn't have to be said, but apparently it does when looking at pics of some goobers OC'ing. I mean at the least, can we agree that it's probably not a bright idea to make one's self look like a potential active shooter?

From my own layman's perspective, I feel like there's a correlation between OC and, somewhat, RO's dealing with the public carrying/handling guns at the typical public range. A lot of people doing it, most of which probably mean well, but far fewer taking it seriously and conducting themselves in a truly professional manner. Maybe there is something training-related, on the LE side, that could be done with that, to help identify people that probably "just don't know any better" versus them necessarily being a potential active shooter threat, or something along those lines?

 

[Countryfried Frank]

Paramedic: PC 37.11

It will take court precedent, but stopping someone for an otherwise legal act will end up being affirmed as illegal.

Two problems with that. First, a paramedic is not necessarily a public servant. See PC1.07.a(41). Second PC37.11 makes it an offense to impersonate a public servant, not to act as a paramedic without a license. For 37.11 to apply you would have to claim to be employed by a governmental entity and claim to be operating under that authority without a legal right to do so. As I'm sure you are aware, not all paramedics work for governmental entities and not all companies that provide ambulance services contract to governmental entities. By way of example, a paramedic working for an ambulance company that provides for transport of patients from one hospital to another would not be a public servant.

 

[majormadmax]

What's most funny is that people are arguing about "concepts" are debating something that hasn't even happen yet! OC isn't legal until January, perhaps we take a step back from this debate and wait until it actually occurs to determine if the police are "harassing" people about OC'ing or not. For all anyone knows, there won't be a single instance of someone being asked to show their CHL!

But hell, this is TGT, becoming well-known hangout for the tin foil hat wearers to say the sky is falling when it isn't (e.g. JADE HELM)...

 

[zincwarrior]

Train them to leave those citizens alone unless they are committing a crime.

As someone noted, it is likely they will have to investigate. Only licensed carriers can OC and "man with GUNZ OMYGODDZZZ!!!!!!!" will eventually get some officers sent out. This is fine if done calmly and professionally.

 

[zincwarrior]

It is illegal unless the person is licensed. How does a LEO ascertain that? He asks you.

Exactly. If done properly (by ALL parties) its no biggie and would take as long as it does for me to type this sentence.
"have a license for that?"
"here you go"
(looks at license)
"have a nice day."

Alternatively
"have a license for that?"
"here you go"
(looks at license)
"Wait is that an X? How does it shoot?" and fifteen minutes of talking goes by...later:
"have a nice day."
[summation of true story of the last stop the wife and I had with the local PoPo, discussing her pistol and how she liked it as his wife was looking for a new pistol]

 

[Charlie]

Just figured out how to solve the problem! All OC people get a cap from the state when they get their license that says, "Official OC License Holder". Problem solved!!

 

[Sugar Land]

Maybe a tattoo on the forehead?

 

[Big Dipper]

Just figured out how to solve the problem! All OC people get a cap from the state when they get their license that says, "Official OC License Holder". Problem solved!!

And, of course, a ten year jail term if you can't produce it on demand, in order to be certain that people don't sell them on the black market! ;-)

 

[BRD@66]

BRD, no offense but, I tend to lean TXI's way in assuming the thread premise is hearsay. I understand your friend probably wanting to remain anonymous, but what are we talking about here, state, city, county LE department? The details were vague enough, it's a bit hard for it to seem like this is legit. Again, no offense, just explaining the perception based on what we've heard so far.

Wow! This thread is going sideways. Sig_Fiend, none (offense) taken. Back at you - no offense, but would my premise be easier to swallow if my guy was known to be state..or city.. or etc? Probably not. Let's pretend that I had originally posed my question as a survey for my own peace of mind, not someone elses. Would I have avoided some of the fallout that has been thrown my way? Probably. Let's then pretend that there really is a LEO trainer interested in input from firearms enthusiasts. Maybe he's planning something like happened in Atascosa yesterday (referenced in comment #15 here by majormadmax). What would he say to this thread? Well, in order to keep him from being exposed to the bile that is spewed from the member who I consider to be the Scut Farcus of TGT, I intend to cherry pick coments from this thread and take them to my imaginary friend for his edification. Comments like yours and ZincWarrior & a few others. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[zincwarrior]

Careful, I'm viewed as the Board's "libtard"...

 

[Charlie]

And, of course, a ten year jail term if you can't produce it on demand, in order to be certain that people don't sell them on the black market! ;-)

OK, I'll go with the "tattoo on the forhead" thing!

 

[Whistler]

Comportment, habiliment and accoutrement - damn didn't know I was going to need to float a loan to OC, glad that's not actually part of the law. I know the point you're trying to make Sig and agree the Rambos should stay in the basement but the way you put it comes across a bit elitist.

I seldom leave my property anyway but wouldn't it be nice if folks going about their business didn't need to stop and show their papers are in order?

BRD my only training suggestion would be to recommend Officers observe the behavior of an OC-er and assess if this person is behaving in a threatening or aberrant manner predicating interference/contact. Merely openly carrying a firearm should not, in my opinion, in and of itself result in stopping someone to request they prove their license status as suggested by others. I recognize the law is written to require licensing however I consider that exercise to be a frivolous use of taxpayer resources detracting from the Officer's ability to focus on more weighty infractions such as jaywalking or littering (< joking).

 

[Bithabus]

Carrying handguns is illegal in Texas, and your license is a defense to prosecution. This is the case regardless of what TexasInvestigator chooses to believe.

So, if the cops ask to see your license you are being lawfully detained. He can arrest you for UCW. Show him the license. And if you're going to OC, don't dress or act like a scumbag.