Church Sign Question

[BigRed]

I'm lucky that most of my time is in a state where the silly signs have no force of law.

 

[toddnjoyce]

The op said he read it in the bulletin. He has been given effective notice. Not disagreeing with everything else that you wrote but notice can either be by signs, verbal or written and op said he read it in the bulletin. If he wasn't honest about it then he may not have received effective notice.

Again, the prosecution is required to prove the OP was effectively noticed for a conviction. Since the defendant is not required to take the stand, nor is the defendant required to incriminate himself, how does the prosecution get a conviction?

For LTC holders, in the vast majority of scenarios, a .05/.06/.07 sign is merely a suggestion so long as you leave if asked. And that’s without getting into the various defenses to prosecution available.

 

[alternative]

Again, the prosecution is required to prove the OP was effectively noticed for a conviction. Since the defendant is not required to take the stand, nor is the defendant required to incriminate himself, how does the prosecution get a conviction?

For LTC holders, in the vast majority of scenarios, a .05/.06/.07 sign is merely a suggestion so long as you leave if asked. And that’s without getting into the various defenses to prosecution available.

You keep assuming that there is a prosecution. The issue is has the op been given notice because he read the bulletin that said no guns? My argument is that he has been given legal notice and he can proceed in any fashion that he wants to. One can be given notice by signs, writing and oral and the op has been given notice. I believe that a written bulletin which he said he has read is notice. A moral person would not knowingly break the law.
If a store such as walmart bars you forever that is forever so this time limit thing that you believe is valid is questionable. The church can rescind their gun ban but as far as I know when they ban you it is forever unless they rescind it. That can be by removing their signs, verbally or in writing. My suggestion still is to find a different place to worship.

 

[alternative]

He may have read it, but he was given verbal notice 3 sundays in a row.

But evidently verbal notice has an expiration date.

I agree, verbal notice does not have an expiration date.

 

[Colonel]

Find another church or find another pastor.

 

[studenygreg]

I would ask God. If he says don't carry then don't.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[BigRed]

Luke 22:36

 

[toddnjoyce]

You keep assuming that there is a prosecution. …

Without a successful prosecution there is no crime; morally speaking, the code provides very clear guidance on the expectations for the license holder.

It is a defense to prosecution that the license holder was personally given notice by oral communication described by Subsection (b) and promptly departed from the property.

If there is a successful prosecution, is a Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by) and subsequently failed to depart.

 

[alternative]

Without a successful prosecution there is no crime; morally speaking, the code provides very clear guidance on the expectations for the license holder.


If there is a successful prosecution, is a Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by) and subsequently failed to depart.

If one commits murder and is never caught or prosecuted is there a crime? The op did not say he has a LTC. The op has been given notice. If he wants to trespass now that he has notice that is his business. Smart thing would be to not break the law and find a more suitable church.

 

[General Zod]

If one commits murder and is never caught or prosecuted is there a crime? The op did not say he has a LTC. The op has been given notice. If he wants to trespass now that he has notice that is his business. Smart thing would be to not break the law and find a more suitable church.

Except the carry law is pretty specific. Notice must be given for each instance - that's the whole point of posting a sign at the door instead of just "spreading the word". This holds true for unlicensed carry, too.

Also, murder isn't a misdemeanor. Violating 30.05/06/07 is. Whole different class of laws - you don't need to be given notice not to commit murder in order to be expected not to commit murder. Well, maybe you do, but the rest of us don't.

 

[DoubleDuty]

QUOTE="BigRed, post: 2918901, member: 41767"]
I'm lucky that most of my time is in a state where the silly signs have no force of law.
[/QUOTE]
That is how it should be here in TX. Those signs protect noone.That is what we need to work on.

 

[DoubleDuty]

If no signs are posted and you carry a firearm you have broken no law. Even if asked to leave and you leave you still haven't broken any law. How much is your life worth?

 

[seeker_two]

Commie pastor?

False prophet.

 

[toddnjoyce]

If one commits murder and is never caught or prosecuted is there a crime?

Murder is a crime, but I’m not guilty of committing murder until the jury has convicted me; let’s read from TPC Title 1, Chapter 2, the book of Burden of Proof.

Sec. 2.01. PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. All persons are presumed to be innocent and no person may be convicted of an offense unless each element of the offense is proved beyond a reasonable doubt…

Sec. 2.03. DEFENSE. (a) A defense to prosecution for an offense in this code is so labeled by the phrase: "It is a defense to prosecution . . . ."
(d) If the issue of the existence of a defense is submitted to the jury, the court shall charge that a reasonable doubt on the issue requires that the defendant be acquitted.

To get to a conviction, a citation first has to be issued; that requires LE presence.

… The op did not say he has a LTC. The op has been given notice. If he wants to trespass now that he has notice that is his business. Smart thing would be to not break the law and find a more suitable church.

The OP also did not state this church is not located in a school, at a race track, in a court’s office, the secured area of an airport, any of the other 46.03 prohibited places, or a federally prohibited place. Instead, the OP placed it in the LTC subforum, so I did some of that Sherlock Holmes shit and deduced what was being asked.

What bothers me is LTC holders using some sort of moral superiority argument when it comes to the code. Might as well fat shame them while you’re at it.

The statutes provide the legal requirements and procedures to be followed that must be met before someone can be determined guilty of committing a crime; that’s due process.

Now, let’s also look at the severity of the crime. A 30.06 violation is a fine-only class C misdemeanor; nobody’s going to jail, much less prison. Just like most traffic tickets.

What really bothers me an LTC holder that will choose to leave a firearm in a vehicle because of a .06/.07 sign. That simply invites a thief to steal the gun.

I digress…..

The OP originally asked a specific question; does previous oral notice constitute effective notice today. That answer is no. Then the OP asked ‘what about written notice in tiny print at the bottom of a flyer; is it effective notice. That answer in his specific case is no.

 

[Whistler]

Just talk to the pastor then make a decision if you can accommodate their rules or not, maybe even change their mind. The legality of it is less interesting in that OP is unlikely to take drastic action such as sue a church.

 

[General Zod]

If you're going to bring the subject up with the pastor (particularly one who has, in the past, felt the need to specifically announce that carrying firearms is not allowed in his congregation) you need to be prepared to find a new church to go to just in case it goes poorly because it sounds like the irrational anti-gun spirit is stronger than any other spirit he may be feeling, and this sort of thing could make you the focus of a lot of hostility from the pulpit.

There's a chance you could talk sense to him, but a more likely chance that he already "knows" all he cares to on the subject and would not welcome any facts or logic to threaten his views.

 

[DaBull]

Once sensitized to the issue, an anti-LTC pastor is likely to now post the correct signage too, removing all doubt for LTC holders.

 

[benenglish]

The op said he read it in the bulletin. He has been given effective notice.

I disagree.

I have always interpreted incorrect public notice, i.e. failure to post the 100% language-and-format-compliant legal signage for .06 and/or .07, as "Firearms Welcome! We put up this stupid verbiage in this way because we're trying to get the anti-gun Karens who unfortunately walk among us to leave us in peace. However, as an educated gun owner you know this sign is meaningless and your firearm is welcome here."

I admit that .05 may have complicated things a bit but, in practice, I haven't run into any place that posts to prohibit carry under .05 that didn't already have signs up for .06 and .07.

And, besides, as several have pointed out, it's the prerogative of any person or organization to change their mind. Even if I read or heard something about "No guns here!" at some point in the past, that was in the past. Absent complications from prior contacts, if you don't prohibit me right now, at this particular visit, via legally sufficient means, then I'm not prohibited from carrying.

 

[benenglish]

Once sensitized to the issue, an anti-LTC pastor is likely to now post the correct signage too, removing all doubt for LTC holders.

Though I support education on all things for everyone, this is unfortunately true. I remember a time when I tried to educate businesses. Now I look back and realize I was being seriously stupid. I don't initiate those conversations anymore. I'm not saying anyone who does is wrong, just that I'm no longer among those folks.

 

[Geezer]

I always like to refer back to the phrase, "Concealed means concealed."