Cheap steel cased ammo?

[gerritm]

I shoot a lot in 3-gun competition and have seen a bunch of stuck cases lately. the common factor is it is always cheap steel cased ammo. A couple have been stuck that never fired and several have been fired and stayed in the chamber. The coatings vary with the brand, but they all have that green or gray tint to it. It seems to be a worse problem in the summer heat.

I shoot a DPMS 3G and paid a lot of money for it and love the rifle. I shoot nothing but PMC or Federal brass cased .223 ammo and have never had a stuck case or FTF. DPMS will not honor their warranty using steel cased ammo. When you see the guy trying to pound out the case from the chamber and you ask him what happened, they always respond with " cheap steel ammo".

Why would you spend a fortune on the rifle and then run this cheap steel ammo thru it? I understand cost factors, but I buy the PMC @ $5 -- $6 a box of 20 vs $3.50 -- $4.50 a box. Is the cost worth it? I am sure this has been discussed, but I have seen the problem happening more and more.

 

[jsimmons]

Because I don't seem to have a problem with it. I shoot Tula, and have put 120 rounds (firing as fast as the range rules allow) through both of my ARs in one sitting with no ill affects. One is a S&W M&P15 with a carbon steel barrel, and the other is a scratch-built AR with a stainess barrel.

If a gun won't shoot steel-cased ammo, it ain't no good to me.

YMMV

 

[The Lox]

Hornady is selling Steel Match ammo just for competition, it might be steel cased, but I don't think its cheap. As far as I am concerned any gun that won't run the crud ammo has problems that need to be fixed. I have run cheap heters crap and tulamo through all the guns I have and had never had 1 single issue...

 

[fuelfather]

It may have been more of a lack of lube/cleaning receiver issue. If you shoot lacquer coated steel ammo it could cause a build up of junk in the ejector/bolt face.

 

[M. Sage]

It's not the coating, it's the case not sealing which loads the chamber with carbon. (BTDT and own a bore scope.) Lined chambers should be better than unlined. I'm not sure if a tighter chamber will be better or worse, but I sure would love to have an upper with a fluted chamber like H&K did on their rifles!

Some rifles are cool with steel cased ammo, some aren't. Turns out .223 isn't really ideal from a reliability standpoint. Damn straight-walled case. It needs more taper like the x39 calibers.

 

[shortround]

Most steel ammo cartridges have a lacquer or other coatings to prevent corrosion.

When shot slowly, most firearms will not complain of their fodder.

In a hot chamber, the protective coatings on the steel cartridges will melt and stick to the inside of the chamber.

Hence, as the residue builds up, the weapon will begin to malfunction.

Most quality American Arms Manufacturers will not honor warranties if the gun is shot with cheap Eastern European or Chinese steel-cased ammo.

If you want to shoot steel, shoot an AK, not an AR.

Be well.

 

[M. Sage]

Shorty: On what are you basing your opinion that the lacquer is the problem?

I've had this issue with my AR. Usually on slow fire and a "cool" rifle. In fact, I can't think of one stuck case I've had (had 3 so far) where it was a hot rifle. And one of those was even a brass case (avoid the Romanian brass cased stuff!!! It was sticking in every AR we had at the range that day, much more frequently than steel-cased has in ANY rifle I've ever seen).

The first time I had this problem, I sat down in my living room and popped the case out, then inspected it and the chamber closely. They both had carbon built up on them. The ammo I was using at the time was the polymer coated stuff, which will not melt at the temps you see in an AR chamber. Neither will the lacquer for that matter.

 

[crabbys44]

When I was researching using steel cased ammo I looked into this a lot.

The allegation was that during long strings of fire, the lacquer was melting and leaving residue in the bore. They switched to a polymer coating and the problem went away.

UNTIL people started shooting brass after firing a quantity of steel cased. Steel isn't as flexible as brass and doesn't seal the chamber as well as brass leaving more powder residue in the chamber. The brass case does its job and gets stuck by all the chamber fouling. It would leave black marks on the brass and if there was too much oil, a goo would form from the heated fouling being pressed into the brass on expansion.

The solution? Shoot only steel or only brass. If you have to mix them, shoot the brass first, then the steel. If you've fired steel and want to switch to brass, thoroughly clean the chamber with a good chamber brush before loading up your brass cased ammo.

I also researched why you shouldn't shoot lead out of Glocks. That should be a different thread though.

BTW I shoot 7.62x39 exclusively with steel cases and never had a problem; I also shoot a lot of steel cased .45 and some 9mm, and no problems yet. With Glocks and HKs you have to be very careful if you are shooting lead and jacketed rounds at the same time. DON'T do it.

 

[M. Sage]

BTW I shoot 7.62x39 exclusively with steel cases and never had a problem; I also shoot a lot of steel cased .45 and some 9mm, and no problems yet. With Glocks and HKs you have to be very careful if you are shooting lead and jacketed rounds at the same time. DON'T do it.

7.62x39 is a bit of a different story (so is 5.45) because the case has a lot more taper to it than .223 does. More taper means it's less likely to get stuck.

Handguns don't run at nearly the pressures of rifles, so the seal isn't as critical nor will brass ammo expand up nearly as much to make the seal.

 

[jsimmons]

...if there was too much oil, a goo would form from the heated fouling being pressed into the brass on expansion.

I don't run my AR's "wet", so maybe that's why I don't have a problem.

 

[gerritm]

After seeing everyones opinions, no one goes for poorly and inconsistently made? I am not saying that all steel ammo is bad. I am saying that the $3-$4 a box Russian type ammo may not be made to better and consistent standards. No comparision to Hornady quality. Sure my gun will shoot the ammo. Not the issue. Question is "why take the chance in a match?" Plinking at the local range is one thing, in a match you depend on your ammo to run, kind of like in a real life situation. Would you depend on cheap ammo to defend yourself or your family. If you don't have the coating or steel there seems to be no real issues with brass cased ammo.

This is just my observations at many matches. When you shoot a long stage the gun gets blistering hot. The common factor is the type of ammo.

 

[DMC]

I have only recently started shooting steel case but I have used almost 5000 rounds so far. I have only had one stuck case. I have shot it in 3 ARs and a KEL-TEC PLR-16. The one stuck case was in the KEL-TEC, it was not really stuck the rim was ripped off by the extractor. I was prepared to beat it out with a brass rod and hammer, but when the the rod hit the case it fell out. I suspect the timing of the kel-tec pistol more than the ammo, time will tell. I will continue to save money shooting steel. 1 out of 5k ain't bad.

 

[TheDan]

The ammo I was using at the time was the polymer coated stuff, which will not melt at the temps you see in an AR chamber. Neither will the lacquer for that matter.

True, the lacquer doesn't melt, but it is sticky just by it's nature. It's not as smooth of a coating as the polymer stuff. I shoot a lot of steel cased ammo, but stick to either the polymer coated or zinc plated. I don't have any issues with it.

but I sure would love to have an upper with a fluted chamber like H&K did on their rifles!

I agree, a fluted chamber would be nice. I think HK's shell shucking ability mostly lies with it's delayed blowback action, tho. You've got chamber pressure helping it extract. It's quite impressive seeing spent cases ejected from an HK type rifle. I'm convinced I could knock someone out with an ejected case from my PTR91

 

[TexasBrandon]

The only thing I fire steel out of is my AK-47 and occasionally my Mini-30. It is cheap but can't reload

 

[Texan2]

have shot 1000's of rounds of steel through multiple ARs and never had a stuck case.

 

[TERRor]

have shot 1000's of rounds of steel through multiple ARs and never had a stuck case.

+1

...even though I prefer Lake City I have shot a ton of steel. Zero issues.

 

[M. Sage]

I agree, a fluted chamber would be nice. I think HK's shell shucking ability mostly lies with it's delayed blowback action, tho. You've got chamber pressure helping it extract. It's quite impressive seeing spent cases ejected from an HK type rifle. I'm convinced I could knock someone out with an ejected case from my PTR91

The fluted chamber would help keep cases from getting stuck, though.

And yeah, those HKs will chuck brass like no tomorrow. My friend's HK91 will chuck that crap almost 20 feet. Only thing I've seen come close is a CZ-52 pistol.

 

[shortround]

Shorty: On what are you basing your opinion that the lacquer is the problem?

I've had this issue with my AR. Usually on slow fire and a "cool" rifle. In fact, I can't think of one stuck case I've had (had 3 so far) where it was a hot rifle. And one of those was even a brass case (avoid the Romanian brass cased stuff!!! It was sticking in every AR we had at the range that day, much more frequently than steel-cased has in ANY rifle I've ever seen).

The first time I had this problem, I sat down in my living room and popped the case out, then inspected it and the chamber closely. They both had carbon built up on them. The ammo I was using at the time was the polymer coated stuff, which will not melt at the temps you see in an AR chamber. Neither will the lacquer for that matter.

Check the "Box O Truth." The Box O' Truth - Educational Zone #18 - Shooting Wolf steel-cased Ammo in an AR15.

They have a satisfactory explanation, and photographs to back up their assertion.

Be well.

 

[weiss27md]

That's why I love my AKs. I would hate to have an AR again.

 

[shortround]

And ...

Fluted chambers positively make reloading brass cases a chore.


Be well.