Car stops ~ but it NO GO

[Glockster69]

How many miles do you have on this thing?

133K, 48K are mine.

I've had 2 people recommend a shop that happens to be in the nearest town. One of the 2 guys had a timing belt changed at the shop, same car just different year/motor so his had a belt instead of a chain. I'll call them tomorrow and see what's shakin.

 

[M. Sage]

You did miss a lot C, it is turning over but thanks.


OK, valve cover off, sprocket bolts appear intact, normal, and all rotating with crankshaft. When hand rotating the engine I did notice a quick pop of slack in the chain occassionaly when everything was unloaded. Hope that makes sense.

I can't see any scuffing of carbon on any of the pistons BUT, I can only see the very center of each one and just slightly more than the diameter of the plug threads. Mainly because there is an @ 4" long extension tube pressed into the valve body that holds the coil for each plug. Also no evidence of any misc. metal pieces (shavings) visible in any bore.

Turned the engine over by hand many times and the sprockets do not align. When the arrow on the fore sprocket is pointing to the center of the aft sprocket, the alignment notch on the aft sprocket is almost straight up. In other words roughly 90^ out of alignment.

I'm not sure which is the #1 cylinder and how to find TDC.

The other way to check for bent valves is to roll the engine around until a lifter is on the base circle (the part that isn't the lobe, the lobe being the "bump" on each part of the camshaft) and see if there's a gap between the base circle and the lifter. If there's a visible gap, it's because the valve isn't coming up all the way, because it can't come up all the way, because it's bent. You'll have to check intake and exhaust for each cylinder this way. Two revolutions of the crankshaft.

Sounds like you broke a guide or tensioner shoe.

Book (well, computer) straight up said 4 hours. I looked at the "how-to" info in our system, it looked like about a 4 hour job...

 

[Glockster69]

^^ I gave that check for bent valves a go today and noticed sometimes the lifter 'roller' (I assume outer bearing race) turned and sometimes it didn't, but I could not see a gap between them.

I coaxed the local guy to come out with a bore scope. We could only see the piston crowns and not the valves due to angle but even he thought it all looked normal. No visible damage/debris but there were some shiny spots around piston edges only but they were at the same location around the circumference in each of the bores. Tried to get the scope down to the tensioner but it wouldn't fit. The 3 guides up high and visible appear intact. He also said since it was a variable timing system, the alignment marks on the cam sprockets may not line up depending on when the engine stopped running. Crank and cams just need to be realigned when chain is installed.

He was looking at whatever service he uses and came back with 4.5hrs for timing chain replacement.

 

[chris211]

133k...you probably just needed to change the spark plugs...

 

[Glockster69]

Called O'Reilly and they can't even get a service manual.

What is the best or most used or most reliable online service I can subscribe to and get mainly timing chain diagram(s) and cam/crank shaft positioning information but also if just a few dollars more, access to a complete service manual? Also will it list any specialty tools required?

 

[Younggun]

Alldatadiy.com has always been good to me. Lots of diagrams, exploded views, and troubleshooting info. Cost about
$35/car for a year.

I think it has tool info on the website, they used to let you look through some sole vehicles but I've never been lucky enough for the sample to be what I was working on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[M. Sage]

AlldataDIY has the exact same info I'd be using. I'm not sure if it has the estimating info, but the repair info is pretty much the industry standard for independent shops.

^^ I gave that check for bent valves a go today and noticed sometimes the lifter 'roller' (I assume outer bearing race) turned and sometimes it didn't, but I could not see a gap between them.

I coaxed the local guy to come out with a bore scope. We could only see the piston crowns and not the valves due to angle but even he thought it all looked normal. No visible damage/debris but there were some shiny spots around piston edges only but they were at the same location around the circumference in each of the bores. Tried to get the scope down to the tensioner but it wouldn't fit. The 3 guides up high and visible appear intact. He also said since it was a variable timing system, the alignment marks on the cam sprockets may not line up depending on when the engine stopped running. Crank and cams just need to be realigned when chain is installed.

He was looking at whatever service he uses and came back with 4.5hrs for timing chain replacement.

LOL, he doesn't understand variable cam timing systems...

The mark is on the sprocket itself. The sprocket isn't supposed to move in the chain, the cam moves in the sprocket. And once you shut the car off and there's no oil pressure to the adjuster, the cam will go to full retard (*insert over-used movie quote*) when you roll the engine over.

 

[Glockster69]

AlldataDIY has the exact same info I'd be using. I'm not sure if it has the estimating info, but the repair info is pretty much the industry standard for independent shops.

LOL, he doesn't understand variable cam timing systems...

The mark is on the sprocket itself. The sprocket isn't supposed to move in the chain, the cam moves in the sprocket. And once you shut the car off and there's no oil pressure to the adjuster, the cam will go to full retard (*insert over-used movie quote*) when you roll the engine over.

I'm not buying the manual to help with estimates but rather to do the job my damn self. Without boring the WWW with my calls today it's become such a cluster I'm ready to DIY. If I'm not in a hurry and the manual is clear AND no super high $$ tools are required, it's time for me to dive in. If it turns out to be more than the timing chain and or tensioner, I am sooooo screwed!

Honestly he didn't garner complete confidence from me not only with the variable timing comment but other things he said when he came over yesterday. But to be fair to him before we really started looking into it he said he no longer does major engine work.

The mark is on the sprocket itself. The sprocket isn't supposed to move in the chain, the cam moves in the sprocket.

So the cam shaft is not in a fixed position relative to it's sprocket or did I over read that?

 

[alexrex20]

The sprocket is solidly attached to the camshaft.

You should be able to download a full service manual if you dig around on the Honda forums.

 

[M. Sage]

The sprocket is solidly attached to the camshaft.

Exhaust cam is. Intake cam sprocket is attached to a hydraulic adjuster which is attached to the camshaft. His car has iVTEC, which incorporates variable intake cam timing, along with dual profile cams.

ETA: Here.

 

[M. Sage]

So the cam shaft is not in a fixed position relative to it's sprocket or did I over read that?

Only intake side on your car (I wasn't specific enough). There's a fixed range of movement, but when the car is running, the computer uses a solenoid to flow a variable amount of oil into the adjuster, which advances the cam timing. More oil means more advance (up to the mechanical limit), so it turns the solenoid on and off real quick (pulse-width modulation) to control the pressure to the adjuster, and gets feedback through a cam position sensor. But yes, the cam position is not 100% determined by the position of the sprocket. But the marks on the sprocket should ALWAYS line up with the other timing marks.

 

[alexrex20]

For all intents and purposes, my statement is still correct.

 

[M. Sage]

For all intents and purposes, my statement is still correct.

Negative. There's a fluid connection between the two on the intake side.

 

[alexrex20]

So I guess the sprocket will fall off the camshaft when the chain is removed.

 

[Glockster69]

You should be able to download a full service manual if you dig around on the Honda forums.

Yeah, that hasn't worked so hot for me. I started a thread at honda-tech 1 or 2 days ago and have had 1 reply. He told me to search for cam galling.
.
I hope in your last post you were kidding, I could use positive help with my problem.

 

[alexrex20]

Yes I was kidding. The timing marks should always line up on the cam sprockets. Yes, the camshaft does adjust within the sprocket, but that's completely independent of the timing marks. The fact that you have VTEC is irrelevant to the fact that your timing marks do not line up.

See if these links work for the service manual:

EP3 Factory Service Manual - Club EP3 Message Board
hondatech.info: Honda service manuals
Honda Civic Si EP3 02 03 Service Manual

 

[M. Sage]

Yeah, that hasn't worked so hot for me. I started a thread at honda-tech 1 or 2 days ago and have had 1 reply. He told me to search for cam galling.
.
I hope in your last post you were kidding, I could use positive help with my problem.

Just get Alldata DIY. Costs about what a decent book would for a year's access. If you really want, you can actually copy/paste the stuff on the site and download all the images.

But you didn't hear that from me.

 

[Younggun]

Just get Alldata DIY. Costs about what a decent book would for a year's access. If you really want, you can actually copy/paste the stuff on the site and download all the images.

But you didn't hear that from me.

I printed tons of diagrams and such when I was fighting with my old B2600i. I hated working on that thing.

If the year bothers you just print stuff as you go and you will eventually have a book that's is way better thane the Haynes manuals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[M. Sage]

I printed tons of diagrams and such when I was fighting with my old B2600i. I hated working on that thing.

If the year bothers you just print stuff as you go and you will eventually have a book that's is way better thane the Haynes manuals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1. Haynes leaves a LOT to be desired. Alldata gets their info from the manufacturer. I've run into gross inaccuracies from time to time, but always on European cars, and given how they tend to be about letting any info out, I can't say that it's always going to be Alldata's fault. American and Japanese cars, they're pretty solid.

 

[Glockster69]

Ha! Checked my mail tonight and there was a coupon from the nearest Honda dealer - for what you ask? Timing belt replacement!

If you'll remember, I got a quote of $960 from them sight unseen for a timing chain replacement. I called and asked if the $495 coupon could apply to a chain replacement with an adjustment in price for the difference in the cost of parts. She has to research that and will call me tomorrow. *fingers crossed*