150 Armed Militia take over Oregon Federal Building

[Mexican_Hippie]

Why didn't they just let him meet with the Sheriff instead of blocking the road? Problem solved - no violence. After all the Sheriff overrules any other LEO in that jurisdiction.

Oh I know why, because government IS force. You WILL comply with their will/ego.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

I'm also about sick of hearing about pay for _________, including LEOs.

This is a free country. If you want more pay go and get it. They chose the profession. Don't denigrate their CHOICE, for whatever reason, by bitching about pay.

 

[Mreed911]

After all the Sheriff overrules any other LEO in that jurisdiction.

What Oregon law provides for that? I wasn't personally aware of that and I'm not sure how that would work. Can a Sheriff "unarrest" someone that another LEO has arrested?

 

[TheDan]

Any way you want to slice it, it's suicide by cop-threatening.

He plainly chose his fate.

The first couple of shots were fired at him immediately as he exited the vehicle with his hands up, but yeah the guy wanted to be a martyr. That is pretty dumb...

What is the deal with the rest of it? Is it SOP to fire gas canisters into a car for 5min without giving any instructions or attempt at surrender?

 

[TheDan]

We don't know what happened before the video started. We don't know what the officers replies or commands were during the initial stop when he said he was going to meet the Sheriff. (For all we know they said, great, we'll give you an escort).

According to this article: http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_agents_und.html

Finicum stopped his 2015 Dodge pickup a short distance away. Payne, the tactical leader of the occupation, surrendered after a state trooper fired a plastic tipped 40mm pepper spray round that struck the truck's canopy.

If you have the perception that they are shooting at you before you are given an opportunity to surrender it might make you think you don't have any options. Payne chose not to be provoked. Finicum went the other way...

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

What Oregon law provides for that? I wasn't personally aware of that and I'm not sure how that would work. Can a Sheriff "unarrest" someone that another LEO has arrested?

This says it better than I. It's not unique to Oregon.

http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2012/11/09/constitutional-sheriffs-the-purse-and-the-sword/

ETA: I'm not saying "unarrest". I'm saying they should have let him go to the Sheriff and speak with him instead of throwing up a roadblock.

 

[bones_708]

They had these people on an unoccupied stretch of road isolated with a road block and the state police should just get out of the way and let them drive into town? What world would this happen in? Because it certainly wouldn't happen on this planet. You should never chose to allow armed fugitives the opportunity to travel to a location with more bystanders and a much greater chance of collateral damage. To do so would have been criminal negligent of the part of the State Police. The cops here did what everyone was saying they should of done at Waco. Now some people are pissed that the cops did a decent job? And I'm sorry but there is nothing in the law that says criminals get to pick who arrests them. The whole idea is just stupid.

 

[bones_708]

The first couple of shots were fired at him immediately as he exited the vehicle with his hands up, but yeah the guy wanted to be a martyr. That is pretty dumb...

What is the deal with the rest of it? Is it SOP to fire gas canisters into a car for 5min without giving any instructions or attempt at surrender?

They also shot the truck while it was still moving. So? I think jumping out of the truck while shots were being fired running in circles while reaching is a pretty textbook Suicide By Cop scenario. And the guy said he wouldn't be going to jail. He made it real clear that he would rather be shot than in prison. But lets ignore what he said because twisting events to push an agenda s always the better choice.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

They had these people on an unoccupied stretch of road isolated with a road block and the state police should just get out of the way and let them drive into town? What world would this happen in? Because it certainly wouldn't happen on this planet. You should never chose to allow armed fugitives the opportunity to travel to a location with more bystanders and a much greater chance of collateral damage. To do so would have been criminal negligent of the part of the State Police. The cops here did what everyone was saying they should of done at Waco. Now some people are pissed that the cops did a decent job? And I'm sorry but there is nothing in the law that says criminals get to pick who arrests them. The whole idea is just stupid.

The whole notion of using violence when a peaceful solution is possible is just a stupid idea. The dumbest possible of all ideas.

They were on their way to talk to the sheriff. Why not follow them and speak to them WITH the sheriff? That solution is only non-viable if your intent isn't really to resolve the situation but to show what happens when you disagree with government.

 

[TheDan]

They also shot the truck while it was still moving. So? I think jumping out of the truck while shots were being fired running in circles while reaching is a pretty textbook Suicide By Cop scenario. And the guy said he wouldn't be going to jail. He made it real clear that he would rather be shot than in prison. But lets ignore what he said because twisting events to push an agenda s always the better choice.

What are you arguing about? I clearly state in what you quoted that he was trying to be a martyr, and that is a stupid thing to do.

 

[zincwarrior]

They had these people on an unoccupied stretch of road isolated with a road block and the state police should just get out of the way and let them drive into town? What world would this happen in? Because it certainly wouldn't happen on this planet. You should never chose to allow armed fugitives the opportunity to travel to a location with more bystanders and a much greater chance of collateral damage. To do so would have been criminal negligent of the part of the State Police. The cops here did what everyone was saying they should of done at Waco. Now some people are pissed that the cops did a decent job? And I'm sorry but there is nothing in the law that says criminals get to pick who arrests them. The whole idea is just stupid.

Cops did their job.

Pro-tip, don't try to pull a James Cagney and draw down on someone legally required to stop you and empowered to shoot you in the face.

 

[zincwarrior]

The whole notion of using violence when a peaceful solution is possible is just a stupid idea. The dumbest possible of all ideas.

They were on their way to talk to the sheriff. Why not follow them and speak to them WITH the sheriff? That solution is only non-viable if your intent isn't really to resolve the situation but to show what happens when you disagree with government.

They had warrants correct? It was the ideal time to serve those warrants. Again, they had already ran past one checkpoint. At that point they were actively evading arrest.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

It wasn't an ideal time - is exactly the point I'm making.

ETA: I'm not saying the guy who jumped out was making a smart move either. I'm simply saying there was a more peaceful path they could have taken but they chose not to.

 

[Younggun]

I feel that once I've taken certain actions/mad statements, I've opened myself up to certain ramifications and will be prepared accordingly.

I damn sure wouldn't go riding around with my kids or any one else's in the truck on my way from my standoff to the sheriff knowing I have warrants and telling them to shoot me cause I won't be taken alive.

That part right there gets me. That was incredibly stupid and irresponsible on their part. Just as bad as any LEO action took.


I'm censoring my language heavily in regards to my opinion of taking the kid with them.


Sent from my HAL 9000

 

[Savage20]

Ya, that's what I found most disturbing.

 

[zincwarrior]

It wasn't an ideal time - is exactly the point I'm making.

ETA: I'm not saying the guy who jumped out was making a smart move either. I'm simply saying there was a more peaceful path they could have taken but they chose not to.

How? These are armed persons with warrants actively evading the police. If it were LA they would have been obliterated (after a really cool car chase). Same for Houston, or Dallas. But not Flint-they'd throw bottles of city water at the BGs there.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Yeah the kid part was bad. Knowing they had a kid should have aborted the stop for sure (if the LEOs knew).

It was also colossally dumb to bring a kid with you in that situation. The "protesters" should never have put kids in that situation.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

How? These are armed persons with warrants actively evading the police. If it were LA they would have been obliterated (after a really cool car chase). Same for Houston, or Dallas. But not Flint-they'd throw bottles of city water at the BGs there.

I already stated how in my previous post.

 

[oldag]

ETA: I'm not saying the guy who jumped out was making a smart move either. I'm simply saying there was a more peaceful path they could have taken but they chose not to.

Exactly. Just because someone has the right to do something does not always mean that is the best thing to do.

 

[oldag]

They had these people on an unoccupied stretch of road isolated with a road block and the state police should just get out of the way and let them drive into town? What world would this happen in? Because it certainly wouldn't happen on this planet. You should never chose to allow armed fugitives the opportunity to travel to a location with more bystanders and a much greater chance of collateral damage. To do so would have been criminal negligent of the part of the State Police. The cops here did what everyone was saying they should of done at Waco. Now some people are pissed that the cops did a decent job? And I'm sorry but there is nothing in the law that says criminals get to pick who arrests them. The whole idea is just stupid.

Umm, no. they essentially did the same thing that was done at Waco. They could have escorted the truck to the sheriff and let the sheriff take them in custody. At Waco, the ATF could have let Koresh go into town for his usual weekly trip and had the locals arrest him (as they had done before without incident). But no, they had to go in guns blazing. And they cost a lot of people - including LEO's, women and kids - their lives.